Rise from your grave!

[myk]

Hello all,

I don't know why but I decided to dig out my barely used Kyosho Optima Mid that I bought and built more than 20 years ago-I ran it about 10 times at the most. It ran perfectly until I decided to forget about it all these years, but now that I want to get it going again I've got some questions.

My main goal is to run this car for fun but not compete or run it TOO hard, in any way. I figured I'd start out with modernizing some of the 'tech, so I yanked Kyosho's "heavy duty" rotary/mechanical speed control and bought a Tazer 12T ESC. My original NiCd battery still took a charge but lasted about a minute, so just to get things going I picked up a cheap-o 1300 NiMH. I blew off the cobwebs, tightened some screws, took it to a dirt lot and had more fun with it than I ever did-I'm ashamed to say that I even rolled the buggy a few times it was so quick.

What do you guys think so far? Some people told me to go brushless/Li-Po but I'm convinced that the power of the new millenium will tear that car's belt drive in half, so I don't think I'll go there unless stronger parts can be had.

1. What sort of brush motor could I/should I buy?
2. What wheels/tires would work on this buggy? I want to spare my original wheels and tires. I've been told 12mm, hex wheels from Tamiya are a start but where or what else? Suggestions?
3. Do NiMH batteries always take so long to charge (hours)? I miss my NiCd batteries because 15 minutes on an outlet or a car battery and you were good to go.
4. What sort of maintenance should I perform on this buggy to make sure it's in the best shape possible?
5. Are there ways of reinforcing the drive train to hopefully one day take on brushless/LiPo? It's not a priority but I can't help but wonder.
6. I need to replace my motor leads but I can't seem to find them anywhere? Are they called something else? Do I just make my own?


I plan on replacing the body with a 'repro as the original one is cracking in the body post areas. Other than that, I really don't know what else to do for this thing. I most certainly WILL NOT shelve it or part it out like alot of the LHS guys keep telling me.

I apologize for all the questions but I don't know of anyone else that can help me out with this. If there're any other points you guys could make as I try to make up for ignoring this buggy for 20 years I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

[Coelacanth]

Since nobody's answered any of your questions yet, I'll take a run at some of 'em.

1. Your Optima Mid can handle pretty much any brushed motor out there. But going brushless would be a good idea as they're no-maintenance. No brushes or springs to replace, comms to clean, etc. I'm considering going brushless with one of my original Optimas, I probably wouldn't go lower than 10T/3900 kV. (Lower "T" and higher kV means faster. "T" refers to number of turns.)

2. Search eBay for 12mm hex 2.2" rims & tires, you'll find plenty to choose from.

3. NiMHs do seem to take longer to charge, but the tripled/quadrupled run-times make it worthwhile. They also don't have the same memory issues as NiCd's have, you don't need to fully discharge after every run. NiMHs can be safely stored with some charge in them, I believe 40% or so is recommended.

4. Clean it up, re-lube everything. I'd probably do a full disassemble, that's what I did when I rebuilt my Optima for the first time in 20-some years. You can quite easily upgrade all the rods (tie-rods, camber rods) with titanium turnbuckles. Just search eBay for turnbuckles in the lengths you need. They also make it easier to adjust toe-in and camber, you don't have to pop off the ball-ends every time.

5. I'll let someone else answer that.

6. I replaced all my motor leads with male 3.5mm gold bullet connectors (I'd recommend 4mm if you're going with a brushless ESC). Make sure they either match with your ESC's leads. If not, solder on some matching female bullet connectors. If you accidentally reverse the leads and your motor goes in the wrong direction, you can just disconnect the leads and switch them up.

Let's see some pics of your rebuild!

[Lowgear]

Welcome to your doom!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[myk]

Since nobody's answered any of your questions yet, I'll take a run at some of 'em.

Thanks alot for the detailed response. I figure at some point I'll try brushless but there's time for that later-maybe after I've bought enough spare parts to keep the car alive in case of breakage. What sort of lubricant did you use for your cars? Something from a LHS? Thanks again...

Welcome to your doom!

Sorry couldn't resist.

Ha ha, I'm glad someone caught on to that. I figure my Optima Mid and Altered Beast were from the same era so why not, lol...

[Coelacanth]

Since nobody's answered any of your questions yet, I'll take a run at some of 'em.

Thanks alot for the detailed response. I figure at some point I'll try brushless but there's time for that later-maybe after I've bought enough spare parts to keep the car alive in case of breakage. What sort of lubricant did you use for your cars? Something from a LHS? Thanks again...

Yeah, nothing special, really. Tamiya Silicon Grease for most friction points (dogbones & outdrives, control arm hinge pins, king-pins, etc.) and good ol' 3-in-1 oil for the bearings. I'd just re-lube everything as stated in your manual with those items.

[myk]

Well I wanted to spare my O-mid's original wheels and tires that are still in pretty good shape, so I got these HPI Super Stars. I wanted them in white but they don't seem to be available anywhere. Also, the lack of spikes makes the car kinda slippery-I NEVER thought I'd see this car do a power slide, lol...

[myk]

Hey fellas.

So about eight years later I'm here again to ask for your guidance on my little 'ol Optima Mid.

I had fun with it for about a year, running it with a Venom NiMh and a Tazer 12T ESC instead of the NiCd and rotary speed control. But, life and a demanding girlfriend got in the way and I forgot about the car again. Fast forward to today: I discovered my NiMh battery was dead and my charger disappeared, so I went to the LHS and picked up an inexpensive 5Kamh NiMh and a Prophet Sport mini charger. I turned the TX on and then the Tazer ESC, only to find that the car wouldn't stop running and the steering servo was turning on its own. I tried to reprogram the ESC as per the manufacturer's website but no dice. I figure the ESC is toast? Could it be the TX?

I never liked the Tazer 12T anyway, so I searched here and found out that the Hobbywing 1060 was recommended for brushed setups. While I wait for that to show up, I'm thinking about questions I had back in the day: should I run brushless/LiPo with this car? Would it be better to run with that setup? The LHS' all think that anything beyond a NiMh/brushed setup would shred the belts and the drivetrain in this car, but I've seen some of you guys running it without issue, I think.

Meanwhile, I bought another body, wing and an undertray for the car so I can help the car look like new again. This time I'm hoping I can figure out how to cut the body out cleanly, lol. In any case, any recommendations you guys have about my Optima Mid's state is appreciated. The only purpose this car will serve is just to tear around dirt, grass and whatever; I'm not trying to win any races so top performance isn't a priority and I really want the car to last, above all else. Thanks in advance guys! I hope you're all doing well...


20191001_013155 by myk sanchez, on Flickr

[Coelacanth]

Wow, now this is quite the thread resurrection.

Your Optima Mid will handle brushless just fine; it doesn't have some of the drivetrain weaknesses as the original chain-driven Optima had. Your hobby shop is out to lunch by saying anything modern will blow up your Mid, that's rubbish. You can probably run anything down to about a 12T brushless motor in that Mid, but a 13T - 13.5T is probably what most would recommend. With a brushless motor and ESC combo with program card, you can program the "punch" setting of the ESC to control how fast the motor accelerates; dial it down to make it controllable. This is similar to how a slipper gear acts.

I chose a Leopard Toro 60A ESC and 12T/3300 kV motor combo in my OptiMutt RWD Mid conversion and it's a nice, smooth combo. GoolRC and other re-brands can be had for even cheaper. I'm running the adjustable ball diff in the rear of this Mid.

[myk]

Wow that is a clean car!

Ok, so if I were to follow your route with the parts you used, is there anything else I would need to do to the car to prepare it for the new tech? What would be a less powerful motor than what you have, a 13 or 14T?

Oh and I noticed my tires are shot. Are these specialty tires with sizes that are only available at certain places? Thanks again guys...

[keithrc]

Hey Myk, Nice Mid you have there. Going on personal experience I can say that the Mid can definitely handle a 13.5T brushless motor, I ran an Ezyrun ESC/motor combo in mine with a 5000mAh NIMH and it was pretty quick. For wheels and tyres, have you considered the Marwan reproduction OT-66 tyres? With the re-release of the Turbo Optima you could get a set of those wheels and use the repro OT-66 tyres or maybe even the tyres than come with the re-release Turbo Optima?

I've been thinking about trying the Javelin re-release wing on my Mid as well, seeing as it's nylon and will handle roll overs better than the lexan wing. The holes don't line up with the wing mounts but I think by making a small adjustment it might just work without having to change the holes in the wing.


Keith

[Coelacanth]

Wow that is a clean car!

Ok, so if I were to follow your route with the parts you used, is there anything else I would need to do to the car to prepare it for the new tech? What would be a less powerful motor than what you have, a 13 or 14T?

Oh and I noticed my tires are shot. Are these specialty tires with sizes that are only available at certain places? Thanks again guys...

Thank you! Well, you certainly don't need to buy any of those parts, the Mid is already a very well-built, tough car. Like Keith said, you'll have all the power you can handle with a 13.5T motor and 60A ESC combo and LiPo battery. Here's a combo I found with a quick search on eBay, but you'll find similar ones on Amazon and online hobby e-tailers; Cheetah, Leopard, EZRun, GoolRC and a whole bunch of cheaper no-name clones are available:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/SkyRC-13-5T-2590KV-2P-Brushless-Sensored-Sensorless-Motor-CS60-60A-V8F1/133184518463

Be sure to buy a combo that includes the program card, because it's a pain--if not impossible--to adjust the ESC settings without one. A lot of the cheaper combos you'll see won't include this, I think those options assume you already have a program card.

EDIT: Looking at your Mid's wheels & tires, they look like they're aftermarket HPI wheels and 2.2" tires and not the original 2.0" wheel diameter. Is that correct? If that's the case, you should have no trouble finding 2.2" wheels & tires to fit 12mm hexes. The issue with most modern wheels is they're all offset to the inside of the wheel, and may rub your shocks/shock towers. A good option is the Proline Desperado 2.2" wheel, they aren't all positive offset but are rather more central, and should fit 2.2" tires that are 85 to 90 mm or so wide.

https://www.prolineracing.com/wheels/desperado-2.2-black-wheels.asp

You might only need 2.2" tires, your wheels look pretty good. Are those tires glued on?

If you want to revert back to original wheel & tire specs, then you can go with the repro tires, and since Kyosho is re-re'ing the Optima/Turbo Optima, wouldn't those re-re wheels & tires fit as well?

[myk]

Hey Myk, Nice Mid you have there. Going on personal experience I can say that the Mid can definitely handle a 13.5T brushless motor, I ran an Ezyrun ESC/motor combo in mine with a 5000mAh NIMH and it was pretty quick. For wheels and tyres, have you considered the Marwan reproduction OT-66 tyres? With the re-release of the Turbo Optima you could get a set of those wheels and use the repro OT-66 tyres or maybe even the tyres than come with the re-release Turbo Optima?

I've been thinking about trying the Javelin re-release wing on my Mid as well, seeing as it's nylon and will handle roll overs better than the lexan wing. The holes don't line up with the wing mounts but I think by making a small adjustment it might just work without having to change the holes in the wing.


Keith

Ok, I will consider getting the 13.5T brushless and the supporting ESC and battery. I thought brushless needed LiPo? As for the wheels, I still have the stock ones and have them put away somewhere. I liked the HPI wheels and the less knobby tires so I went with them for now.

Wow that is a clean car!

Ok, so if I were to follow your route with the parts you used, is there anything else I would need to do to the car to prepare it for the new tech? What would be a less powerful motor than what you have, a 13 or 14T?

Oh and I noticed my tires are shot. Are these specialty tires with sizes that are only available at certain places? Thanks again guys...

Thank you! Well, you certainly don't need to buy any of those parts, the Mid is already a very well-built, tough car. Like Keith said, you'll have all the power you can handle with a 13.5T motor and 60A ESC combo and LiPo battery. Here's a combo I found with a quick search on eBay, but you'll find similar ones on Amazon and online hobby e-tailers; Cheetah, Leopard, EZRun, GoolRC and a whole bunch of cheaper no-name clones are available:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/SkyRC-13-5T-2590KV-2P-Brushless-Sensored-Sensorless-Motor-CS60-60A-V8F1/133184518463

Be sure to buy a combo that includes the program card, because it's a pain--if not impossible--to adjust the ESC settings without one. A lot of the cheaper combos you'll see won't include this, I think those options assume you already have a program card.

EDIT: Looking at your Mid's wheels & tires, they look like they're aftermarket HPI wheels and 2.2" tires and not the original 2.0" wheel diameter. Is that correct? If that's the case, you should have no trouble finding 2.2" wheels & tires to fit 12mm hexes. The issue with most modern wheels is they're all offset to the inside of the wheel, and may rub your shocks/shock towers. A good option is the Proline Desperado 2.2" wheel, they aren't all positive offset but are rather more central, and should fit 2.2" tires that are 85 to 90 mm or so wide.

https://www.prolineracing.com/wheels/desperado-2.2-black-wheels.asp

You might only need 2.2" tires, your wheels look pretty good. Are those tires glued on?

If you want to revert back to original wheel & tire specs, then you can go with the repro tires, and since Kyosho is re-re'ing the Optima/Turbo Optima, wouldn't those re-re wheels & tires fit as well?

Ok, about this ESC and program card. I'm still stuck in the 80's for RC, so how do you go about programming the ESC with this card? What do you do with it? As for the wheels and tires, you have a keen eye-they're HPI rims and tires. I like the wheels so I'm just going to replace the tires with something similar or maybe even a little bit more knobby like the originals, which I still have and for some reason they're not cracked (?). The current tires are not glued on, so they won't be a pain to replace. Wait...are the tires supposed to be glued on? Lol.

So, the plan is to install the replacement ESC that I have arriving today, run my LeMans 240ST for a bit and then follow your guy's recommendations with the brushless 13T and supporting ESC. I will then cut up and install a new body with an undertray; something I should've done when I bought this thing in the 80's. Then , if my drivetrain hasn't blown up, I will head to all of the LHS' and tell them they are full of it lol. Can you believe they all told me to put it on a shelf or part it out? The nerve! Anyway, Thanks again guys!

20191002_124957 by myk sanchez, on Flickr

Edit:

Got the Hobbywing 1060 and the new 5K mah battery installed and....the car lives yet again! Now, the car is acting jittery, as in the steering servo twitches and sometimes the ESC starts to beep like it's getting commands, even though I'm not touching the controls. I thought this was a problem with my first speed control, the Tazer 12T that I bought back in 2011, but now it's happening with the brand new Hobbywing 1060 also. At this point, I'm thinking a new transmitter might be in order, unless you guys have any ideas. So, please don't laugh, but I don't like the pistol grip/wheel setup for cars. I like the two-stick arrangement like I used to use for my R/C plane that I had back in the day:

20191002_171344 by myk sanchez, on Flickr

So I'm looking for a radio suggestion, preferably two-stick, but if I need to step into the 21st century and go with a pistol grip/wheel setup then I will. What do you guys recommend? What features should I have? Man I haven't been this excited since 1988!

[jkelm24]

"Rise from your grave"

Isn't that what the voice said on the Altered Beast Sega Genesis game when you powered up to a ware wolf? Maybe my fond childhood memories are getting jumbled...?

So awesome to see an old 2011 thread brought back to life. Even better to see that it's related to an Optima Mid... Then, even better to see a picture of it with the Mellennium Falcon in the background!!! Mind blown!

[Coelacanth]

The basic procedure to programming ESCs with their corresponding program card is you connect the ESC cable that ordinarily plugs into the receiver, into the program card's port instead. Then you use a series of beeps and lights on the card to adjust the various settings. Without the card, you have to do everything with beeps and transmitter trigger presses (or you can't program the ESC at all, in some cases) and that's not very intuitive. With the program card's LED arrays, it's much easier to figure out what particular setting you're modifying.

[myk]

Ok cool deal. Well, I'm off to the LHS for some new tires and some ideas on a transmitter...