which pinion for Turbo Optima

[jpw59165]

My manual recommends a 9-11t pinion for the 240 series motors, 12-14t pinion for the 360 series motors, but which pinion should I run for a 480 series motor? I am guessing 15-17t.

With the stock 41/18 center gear and 26t counter gear I can put anywhere from a 9 to 18t pinion on it.

I am looking at buying a 240SB and running a 12t, and buying a Speed 480T and running a 14T, would this be OK?

[Jirka]

Turbo Optima come with Le Mans 240S 19x1 wind motor. Turbo Optima manual recommends 9-11 tooth pinions to that motor. Le Mans 240SB is 19x2 wind motor so I would use same pinions 9-11 with 240SB than in 240S, since both are 19-turn motors.

Le mans 480T is also 19x2 motor and surprisingly, exactly even with the same wind thickness than in 240SB. So practically those two motor have same armature so 9-11 tooth pinion would be my choice to this motor too.

Jirka

[jpw59165]

OK, so windings determine the pinion, not so much the run time. Does RPM effect the pinion size as well?

[Coelacanth]

I'd disagree with Jirka on the 480T; that was an 8-minute motor vs. the 240, a 4-minute motor. The 240 puts out a lot more power-per-volt than the 480T. A 14 to 16-tooth pinion would probably work best for a 480. I agree about the 9 - 11-tooth pinion choice for the 240. If you want to go with a more powerful brushless motor, I'd consider an 8T pinion, those were an option back in the day and are still available.

[Coelacanth]

OK, so windings determine the pinion, not so much the run time. Does RPM effect the pinion size as well?

No, I'd say RPM has the bigger effect on pinion gear selection. The 240's were among Kyosho's fastest-spinning, most torquey motors and using a pinion higher than 11T is going to generate a lot of heat. I have a slip of paper that was provided whenever you bought a Le Mans motor that showed what pinion gears are best for each of the Le Mans motors, I'll have to see if I can dig that up. There's a reason why the Turbo Optima came with a small pinion gear.

Indeed: Run-time (back in the day) was all about how fast your motor depleted your battery. The faster a motor uses up 1200 mAh, the more powerful and higher RPM it generated. These days it's different, but back then, a 4-minute motor was a helluva lot faster and more powerful than an 8-minute motor, all else being considered.

Hope this helps!

[Jirka]

I'd disagree with Coelacanth on the 480T. The reason for this is that 480T was released 1989 in the era when there was 1700SCE cells. With those cells 19x2 would be grate 1:12 scale (= 8-minute endurance) motor. Both 240S and 240SB motors were from mid 80's when there was only 1200SC cells. Both those 240 motors were meant to 4-min offroad I think. Since both 240SB and 480T have exactly same wind thay are really close similar motor. I don't know about their default timing, differences in magnets or can/armature technology, so if there is difference it should come from those. In this case it does not matter what number Kyosho did print to the can sticker.

Here in one pic, I don't know what it "says" but take a look:

Also here is a well know "The Le Mans Picture" the the middle of the page: http://theoptimahouse.blogspot.fi/search/label/MOTORS See: 21 Jan 2007

But what should You do now when there are two different opinions? If I was You I would first try 240S with 9-11 tooth pinion on motor and see how that works on car. Then try 480T motor. Since undergearing is less harmfull to motor than overgearing start with same pinion on 480T then there was in 240S and see how it goes. If speed, acceleration etc are about the same as in 240S, then You have right pinion. If not, try bigger pinion. Of cource on first run(s) stop after every 1-minute and feel the motor. If it get way too hot, You have too big pinion. But also remember that use these motor on (race) track, not in backyard etc. If You only accelerate on small area, these are too powerfull motors to and only generates heat. It is always easier to motors to be run on straing and acceleraing from even little speed. If You accelerate all the time from zero, motor taken so much more amps and get hot really easy. This was also a little answer to Your "Motor advice" topic.

Yours Jirka

EDIT: Added a little text, picture and link.

[jpw59165]

Thanks for all the info. In the end I decided to sell the car. It was going to costs me $100 for a NIB Kyosho LeMans motor, and even then it's still a 20+ year old motor. If I wanted to upgrade it to a brushless motor with new ESC and 2.4 GHZ transmitter/reciever it was going to costs me around $350.

[Coelacanth]

I'd disagree with Coelacanth on the 480T. The reason for this is that 480T was released 1989 in the era when there was 1700SCE cells. With those cells 19x2 would be grate 1:12 scale (= 8-minute endurance) motor. Both 240S and 240SB motors were from mid 80's when there was only 1200SC cells. Both those 240 motors were meant to 4-min offroad I think. Since both 240SB and 480T have exactly same wind thay are really close similar motor. I don't know about their default timing, differences in magnets or can/armature technology, so if there is difference it should come from those. In this case it does not matter what number Kyosho did print to the can sticker.

I agree with some of the details you pointed out, but you can make some inferences from that picture. A motor that's best suited for on-road racing will certainly perform differently than a motor suited best for off-road. Generally speaking, the on-road motor needs significantly less torque and maybe higher RPM, as on-road cars are far more efficient and aerodynamic than their offroad cousins. There's a reason why the 480 series is recommended for onroad, but the 240 series are recommended for offroad. If the motors were so similar, why would this be?

Regardless of what Kyosho have printed out in the link to the second often-referenced Le Mans motor info picture, I'd be willing to bet a 360 Gold AND 240S would significantly kick ANY of the 480 series motors' ass for torque and power. Forget windings and RPM. There's no way a motor that takes its sweet time to deplete a NiCd battery in 8 minutes will out-torque & out-race a motor that kills that same battery in 4 minutes, again regardless of what's printed on the can, the turns, windings, RPM. The 240 will have approximately TWICE the oomph. Period.

[Jirka]

I'd disagree with Coelacanth on the 480T. The reason for this is that 480T was released 1989 in the era when there was 1700SCE cells. With those cells 19x2 would be grate 1:12 scale (= 8-minute endurance) motor. Both 240S and 240SB motors were from mid 80's when there was only 1200SC cells. Both those 240 motors were meant to 4-min offroad I think. Since both 240SB and 480T have exactly same wind thay are really close similar motor. I don't know about their default timing, differences in magnets or can/armature technology, so if there is difference it should come from those. In this case it does not matter what number Kyosho did print to the can sticker.

I agree with some of the details you pointed out, but you can make some inferences from that picture. A motor that's best suited for on-road racing will certainly perform differently than a motor suited best for off-road. Generally speaking, the on-road motor needs significantly less torque and maybe higher RPM, as on-road cars are far more efficient and aerodynamic than their offroad cousins. There's a reason why the 480 series is recommended for onroad, but the 240 series are recommended for offroad. If the motors were so similar, why would this be?

Regardless of what Kyosho have printed out in the link to the second often-referenced Le Mans motor info picture, I'd be willing to bet a 360 Gold AND 240S would significantly kick ANY of the 480 series motors' ass for torque and power. Forget windings and RPM. There's no way a motor that takes its sweet time to deplete a NiCd battery in 8 minutes will out-torque & out-race a motor that kills that same battery in 4 minutes, again regardless of what's printed on the can, the turns, windings, RPM. The 240 will have approximately TWICE the oomph. Period.

I was really really surprised when I saw that both 240SB and 480T have same winding 19x2 made by 0.65mm wire. I first thought that those have to be same motor with different sticker printed to can, of course 240SB have aluminium endbell and machined can, but those features are are more bling bling than make some serious performance differences, maybe more to the cooling. But now I found out that those are quite a different motors: In "The Le Mans Picture" there is info about motors rpm. 240SB 30000rpm and 480T only 26500rpm. I don't know does that difference comes from WET magnets that 480T maybe have, SPA motors were the 1st ones (in the RC world?) with WET magnets. If 480T was released after SPA motors and have WET magnets then this might explain the big difference in RPM. I understand that those rpms in ads does not have practically nothing to do with motors real performance, but if they got those rpms from same lab with same equipment. Also timing plays big part here. I assume that 240SB was measured with default 0-degrees timing, but I don't know about 480T, does this motor have adjustable timing or is it made to the "stock" motor can? I have not seen good pictures from 480T endbell. One more thing that might make some differences is brush spring, if 480T have softer on-road type brushes and 240 series harder springs. But the big difference are those SCE cells that do not create as much torque as earlier SC and SCR cells. Because of this same 19x2 wind might be more suitable to on-road cars with SCE cells than it was earlier to offroad cars.

Jirka

[Coelacanth]

Well, I'll conclude by saying this much: I've restored and ran a 480 Gold recently, as well as a 360 Gold, and I've seen what a 240SB can do. The 480 Gold would be superior to the 480T, IMO...and the 360 Gold will kick a 480 Gold's a$$...and a 240SB will kick a 360 Gold's a$$.

A 480T would be a decent, small upgrade over a Mabuchi 540 silver-can motor, but wouldn't hope to compete on a track, either back then and certainly not now. It's a good, mild basher motor. Same goes for the 480 Gold. If you want to really kick up some rooster-tails, go with a 360 Gold or 240 series...but make sure you put in the correct 8 to 11-tooth pinion gear.

[RichieRich]

Guys, don't forget that those charts were probably made for stock tire sizes of the time. If you've upgraded to 2.2 wheels, you are going to have to adjust accordingly. This is one of the reasons I upgraded my Ultima's transmission.

[Coelacanth]

Guys, don't forget that those charts were probably made for stock tire sizes of the time. If you've upgraded to 2.2 wheels, you are going to have to adjust accordingly. This is one of the reasons I upgraded my Ultima's transmission.

Exactly, bigger wheels & tires means an even smaller pinion to even everything out.

[Mad Racer]

Turbo Optima come with Le Mans 240S 19x1 wind motor. Turbo Optima manual recommends 9-11 tooth pinions to that motor. Le Mans 240SB is 19x2 wind motor so I would use same pinions 9-11 with 240SB than in 240S, since both are 19-turn motors.

Le mans 480T is also 19x2 motor and surprisingly, exactly even with the same wind thickness than in 240SB. So practically those two motor have same armature so 9-11 tooth pinion would be my choice to this motor too.

Jirka

The first Green 480T was only a 25t I think. I find it funny that the later 480T & the 240T use the cheaper can that first came out with the 240ST. Wet Magnets really made no differance at all. They dropped a wind from the 480 Gold 25TX4 to a 24TX4 for the Spa version. The first cans of the Le Mans motors were the best cans around apart from Check Point. No wonder Earni used Kyosho cans in the early days. He went on to buy Kyosho's motor division out & stamped EPIC on them.

The other 480T was quite a few yrs later and battery capacity had increased alot by then so a 19T was still mild. Any version of the 480T is rare I feel.

[Jirka]

I have been whole time talking about this newer 480T motor with 19x2 wind. Of course there is also this older, machined can Le Mans 480T with 24-turn wind. With that 24-turn 480T 13-16 tooth pinion should be used. This 13-16 tooth pinion range comes from Optima manual for 480Gold that is also 24-turn motor. Sorry for this cunfusion.

Jirka