The Chinese Invasion: We all know its here........

[MOmo]

I wanted to start this as a 2-fold process. One, to get peoples honest feelings, and also because I am affiliated with a company that is responsible for selling a product line made in China.

So I know how the discussion of quality and how many of our favorite American companies have outsourced to overseas. Many would argue that the quality has gone down in order to save $$. So where do we draw the line? Is it just something we have to accept or are there folks out there who have gone so far as to boycott? Can anything be done? Does anyone care?

So, the 2nd part of this is that I work for a store that owns and distributes a product line made in China. I have been asked to help with some of the designs and also ways to improve the product. I'm not an engineer and I don't want to be. I am more intrigued by design and ways to improve the product. I have been around RC for over 15 yrs, and I have seen alot of changes over the years. I have seen everyone copy everyone else s hard work and reverse engineer something to make a copy.

There are similar product lines out there, you've probably heard of Redcat, Exceed, Hymoto, NQD etc. All share similar parts and design. I'd like to help make our product line better than the others, but I realize that is a tall order. The short version of the story is that my boss wasn't making a ton of money off the major name brands and the customers that come into my hobby store aren't typical hobby people. My store is located inside a major mall in the Portland area, so my customers are mall people and not necessarily hobby people. My hope is to provide a quality affordable product to people looking to get into RC cars. My store still offers the major brands and i am fine to sell those, but these days people find it hard to swallow over $400 for a complete package. We are trying to get people interested for around $250 complete RTR.

So, am I part of the problem or the solution? Can I make this product line something to be proud of,or just sit back and bite my tongue and accept that the RC cars of the 80s and 90s were the best there was?

Has anyone driven any of the aforementioned lines and what were your thoughts? What can I do to improve the product? What is the most important thing I can do for the line to set it apart from the others? Anyone want to test cars for me? (kidding, that's part of my job!)

I am asking you hear because i feel like most everyone has a complete and balanced grasp of the industry as a whole and unlike RCTech and RC Universe, I think I am more likely to get honest feedback, no matter how critical, and that people might actually see through the initial "everything made in China sucks" mentality and give me honest feedback.


Thanks for any help.

MOmo

[purpletimbo]

Well in 1/5 Kingmotor's Baja seems a 95% as good as a hpi, and monster truck wise the Shen Qi Hummer I had was not an FG, but was well worth the hlaf cost savings.
The HSP stuff seems pretty bad, the FTX Crawler I had was excellent all round
hope that helps

[Coelacanth]

Back in the 80's, a full hobby-grade RC outfit cost at least $250 - $300 (Canadian, anyway; including radio, battery, etc.), and well upwards of $500 for the high-end cars & 4WD's. Factor in inflation and does $400 for a full kit really seem that expensive?

This isn't a cheap hobby if you want to get the good stuff. There will always be a market for el-cheapo Asian (these days Chinese/Taiwanese) knock-offs, but the enlightened hobbyists aren't that market.

[MelvinsArmy]

Print this out and post it on your counter at work. Tell your customers the same applies to r/c.

[Charlie don't surf]

My FT T4.1 developed close to 1/8 in of play in the rear end between all the mounting points from the inner pins to the hubs, in 2 heats. My first T4 ( 2004 ) didn't get that in 2 seasons.

IMO when accountants make decisions regarding the production of anything the quality goes
down with every penny pinched. You pay peanuts, you get peanuts.

I would prefer a more expensive and well built race machine such as Ford's SVT line, I understand that the basher/noob really likes a RTR T4.1 for the money, but the higher end truck should be just that.

[proffesso]

dont try to make competive cars, rather, try what tamiya and kyosho (and now hpi) are doing...make interesting basher kits. for every rc10 in the world, there are 5 frogs/grasshoppers (or more) and hpi seems to be doing great with thier line of non-racers too.

hell, kyosho struck gold with the mini-z

if you want to make money, go where the consumers are.

if your passionate about your hobby, raise your prices, and do something worthwhile.

[RETRO R/C]

Chinese or Taiwanese made does not necessarily mean poor quality. It is up to the company that designs/sells the product as to how "high quality" they want the product to be. Associated's B4.1 is MASSIVELY better than the previous example. The quality of the plastic is excellent and the parts fit is alot better.

What I am saying is that the Cinese/Taiwanese manufacturers will manufacturer to YOUR specifications (ie - price) you want cheap - you will get it. You want quality - you will get it. You would be amazed at just how many different brands come out of the same factory. OEM manufacturers produce for several MAJOR brands. The Durango is a superbly crafted car with tight toerances, beautiful machining - yet it is made in Taiwan...............it can and is being done by several manufacturers like Mugen, Hot Bodies, Associated, Losi etc etc etc

Whilst the jobs within manufacturing may have left the US - there are more jobs being kept in the hobby industry because there is an increasing demand. Designers, drivers, hobby shop workers etc etc are being kept in a job. Not perfect - but it's something at least. So many people "Piss and moan" about things being to expensive (here in aus too) - imagine if the cars we raced today were still made in the US or Europe totally - there would be alot more moaning about prices I assure you.

There is no "shame" in what you are looking at doing, however be aware that you will get more returns and alot of "tuning/repair" jobs to do. This keeps you in a job and if the cars are profitable for the boss, then it keeps you in a job alot longer. As you have alluded to - you are more interested in getting people "ïnto" the hobby rather than setting the world on fire with the latest high end racer. There are plenty of cheaper cars n the market at the moment out of China, nothing wrong with them. If one of of five people that buy the cars stay with the hobby for more than a couple of years - I reckon its a job well done.

Cheers

Darryn

[MelvinsArmy]

So much of this outsourcing-because-it's-cheaper business I can't really believe. Just a couple examples, bmx frames and blue jeans. You can get a quality American made bmx frame and any number of quality American made components for the same price as a quality Asian made frame or components. You can also buy American made blue jeans for about the same price as Mexican made Levis and they are of the same quality and fit. Levis thinks it has to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising, I suppose that's why they cost the same, the US manufacturer who makes a fraction of what Levis does, doesn't do that.

I realize people like cheap crap, and if you want cheap crap you can get it made in China. However, nice crap seems to cost as much when it's made in China (or wherever) as it does when it's made right here in the US. To me that looks like the company is probably just looking for a larger profit. That or they use the money on advertising or paying Michael Jordan or whoever hundreds of millions of dollars to plug their crap. Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer to support companies who keep jobs here in the US whenever I can.

[RETRO R/C]

Very true mate - unfortunately, big names spend so much on advertising and want the margins that they do go offshore. If they did not advertise and win etc - they wopuld not exist (or not be very profitable), I guess the dollars still come back to the parent company though - at least!

I understand how it feels, our farmers and several other industries are suffering as much as the US - jobs going directly to india and asia - all in the name of profit.

At the end of the day - I would rather buy AUS/US/EU made - however sometimes you just cant.

Cheers

Darryn

[Lonestar]

IMO when accountants make decisions regarding the production of anything the quality goes
down with every penny pinched. You pay peanuts, you get peanuts.

I am not picking on you Charlie especially, but you provided the right sentence from me to rant on...

The accountants don't make decisions - the consumer does. The accountants just follow the consumers' more-and-more-value-oriented mind. If there wasn't a general will from modellers in general to pay less, there wouldn't be cost cutting. The fact that it's made in china doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the lower quality levels. If you want your B4 to be manuf'ed with the same quality level as your $200 RC10 from 1986, well, the chinese can do this - it'll cost $600 or something in 2010 money (or the equivalent to our $200 from 25 yrs ago)... and no one will buy them as they'll complain that's too much cash.

There is a market for high-quality, high-dollar stuff in RC, still. Durango, Xray, Mugen, Kyosho to some extent (the competition stuff), these guys understood that if they release a product whose quality is above the rest, there will be a core of people to buy them.

My point is - you have a choice. If you don't like the quality of a product, stop buying it. Accountants only implement choices based on consumer behavior... Modellers are to blame here, not the manufacturers... these guys just do what they assess the market asks for.

Paul

PS1: I'd rather buy 3 $200 B4's per year that allow me some brand flexibility to follow the market's evolution rather than one $600 B4 that I'm stuck with for a while do the initial cost
PS2: Rose-tinted glasses... anyone remember the amount of TLC to make a 6G transmission smooth due to the crap proudly-made-in-the-USA moldings?
PS3: Darryn you're my hero. Shame I won't be able to read your articles in RCCar anymore

[RETRO R/C]

[/quote]PS3: Darryn you're my hero. Shame I won't be able to read your articles in RCCar anymore [/quote]

Thanks mate, I must say I was pretty floored when I got the news last week. I have been writing for them for over 7 years.

I am hopeful that I will be able to get in with another magazine, god knows I get enough emails etc about the articles.

Thanks again mate

Cheers

Darryn

PS - sorry to go off topic!

[kaiser]

i haven't bought or driven any chinese clones or cheap chinese cars, but i do run hobbywing esc's and turnigy lipos. i love them, they enable me to run competitive electronics at a fraction of the cost of the high end stuff. as long as lrp or tekin want 250-300 for a esc/motor combo i'll keep running hobbywing, infact as far as i've seen i'll stick with hw anyway, i love the easy programming.
i have seen some decent clones though, some based on the tamiay df02 line, others t3 clones. both seemed rather robust.

Thanks mate, I must say I was pretty floored when I got the news last week. I have been writing for them for over 7 years.

I am hopeful that I will be able to get in with another magazine, god knows I get enough emails etc about the articles.

Thanks again mate

Cheers

Darryn

PS - sorry to go off topic!

what?!

whats this nonsense, your column was the only thing that set that mag apart from the rest, and the only reason i ever bought that mag. thats a damn same darryn.
you'll get another gig, your column was awesome!

[Brandon G]

Saying the consumers are responsible for driving manufacturers overseas is partially true. Corporate greed is another major part of the problem.

Case in point: My wife likes Coach purses. She's owned many of the ones that were made in the U.S., and I can justify some of the added cost for these items based on the quality of workmanship and the sheer fact that they last forever when taken care of properly. They have moved production to China in the last couple of years. You KNOW their cost for manufacture of these products has gone down in doing that. Has their exclusive pricing gone down to reflect their move? Certainly not. They are priced just as high or higher than they were before. Material quality and workmanship seems poorer than the ones made in the U.S. as well. Good news is, the wifey doesn't buy Coach anymore....

So the consumer is partially to blame by striving to buy the cheapest thing out there and strech their buck, the companies are just responding by selling us less for more. Gotta keep the CEO's wallet padded and the shareholders happy.

[MelvinsArmy]

Brandon, you hit the nail on the head.

[MOmo]

Saying the consumers are responsible for driving manufacturers overseas is partially true. Corporate greed is another major part of the problem.

If you look at the overall big picture, Horizon now owns Losi, Thundertiger owns AE, Kyosho still kyosho. But where Losi/AE?Kyosho/Tamiya/ Etc. used to all be independent. The times they are a changing.

Good news is, the wifey doesn't buy Coach anymore....

My wife too is a purse fan. Quite a few Coach, some Luis Vuitton, etc. LMK if she wants some purses, my wife is thinning her collection!

So the consumer is partially to blame by striving to buy the cheapest thing out there and strech their buck, the companies are just responding by selling us less for more. Gotta keep the CEO's wallet padded and the shareholders happy.

Lets be honest, The guys at Associated probably don't have AS padded of wallets as the CEOs from say Goldman Sachs. I think ultimately its a business decision and you make adjustments for the business. You also look at what the other guy is doing and if he's able to offer a product cheaper by have stuff made overseas, then you might have to make the same adjustments. I honestly think that for most of these "Made in the USA" types, it probably hurts to have China making your goods.

I think for me, the end result is FUN and reliability. If you aren't having fun, you aren't getting the full experience. I also think a product that is well made and has parts support, will make that experience more enjoyable. I have known a few people that have bought other brands and found them to be more fragile than the others. I hope to improve our product line, Amax, and have strong support but also design it with durability in mind and making something that could be competitive.


Darren,
Do we all need to write RC Car and complain? I know Tony P personally. Who else do we write? I thought it was a nice touch to a mag. Sure some publications focus on pretty girls to distract the reader, I like looking at Vintage RC for my porn fix!



MOmo