tools fer cheatin!

[makoman1860]

Hey Guys,
a discussion with a fellow "seasoned" racer brought up some good memories and a few laughs. We got on the subject of "inspecting" the internals of ROAR legal stock motors back in the days of crimped cans. This brought up a subject I though would be an interesting one. What tools did you make or buy to undo the can crimp and re crimp it? I made a spreader in my day, since though its been lost to the ages, curious what everyone else did! Pictures will be a must. I think the statute of limitations has long expired, so dont worry

[alien3t]

buddy of mind re-wound a motor to have 2 armatures with 26 turns of wire. Motor is long sold.

[makoman1860]

Yeah I have to admit I never used less than 27 turns, but I would hand wind them. I never advanced the motors past legal either, just up to the edge. The tough part was getting the tabs bent out, and back again without marking them up. That was the real art.

[RS Chris]

I used to put bearings in mine with a really thin bronze washer to hide them. I would just pop the motors on the ground to open them up back in the day. Tried it the other day and ruined a working Reedy Conquest that I had forever, and would kill for another (for nostalgia sake). Thought it was due to the old brittle plastic but I also broke a new Reedy Radon doing the same thing (uugghhh). Obviously I missed a step or two.

[makoman1860]

Ha I thought I was one of the only ones sneaking in a set of bearings that way! It got to the point I was using real bushings and turning them thin on the lathe because the tech guys were getting wise to the brass washer bit. I justified it by telling myself that I WAS using a bushing, but I just added more bearings. Then I just ended up cutting a groove on the ID of the bushing to make 2 knife edge bearings per side that looked stock unless you looked real close. Used different bushing material as well, line honed them to size. See though, those dang crimped end bells are the biggest pain to get around. Ahhhh the good ol days!

[TRX-1-3]

buddy of mind re-wound a motor to have 2 armatures with 26 turns of wire. Motor is long sold.

Two armatures? Dude, sorry, sounds impossible. Were there some gears inside the can? Maybe I'm confused.

Mark

[TRX-1-3]

Ha I thought I was one of the only ones sneaking in a set of bearings that way! It got to the point I was using real bushings and turning them thin on the lathe because the tech guys were getting wise to the brass washer bit. I justified it by telling myself that I WAS using a bushing, but I just added more bearings. Then I just ended up cutting a groove on the ID of the bushing to make 2 knife edge bearings per side that looked stock unless you looked real close. Used different bushing material as well, line honed them to size. See though, those dang crimped end bells are the biggest pain to get around. Ahhhh the good ol days!

So you are/were a cheater. That's really awesome. I'd better shut my yap. I'm done. Good for you.

[JamieB]

No wonder I didn't win much I never cheated or even knew it was going on. Probably wasn't at my level or club anyway.

I’m all for pushing the boundaries of rules and development but blatantly cheating is not on as far as I am concerned.

In F1 a few years back Brawn pushed the boundaries of the rules and interpreted them in a certain way. The team developed a car which blew away the opposition and won the title. There were lots of protests against the design but in the end the powers that be decided the design was within the rules. If the design had been found to break the rules then I would have back any punishment issued but at the same time commended the team for pushing the boundaries.

I love cycling, I use to love Lance Armstrong, what he did however is unforgivable and disgraceful. Not just the cheating but the lies and lives he damaged with these lies. It amazes me even today how many people will argue he should be forgiven and let of as others were cheating so he was on a level playing field. I don’t agree. He would have been a bigger man and a legend forever if he had stood up against the cheats and promoted a cleaner sport.

A cyclist was recently found with a motor in the bike, excuse she didn’t know. Year right! Ban for life no way back.

That tennis player recently who is in the process of being done is slightly different as she has been taking a drug for years which is now banned. She says she wasn’t aware, I don’t know one way or the other but have read several sport biographies and believe it can be possible to miss a rule changing. She however is responsible for what she puts in her body.

I wonder how many people would still consider their RC hero’s a hero if they admitted to cheating? I know I would be disappointed.

Just my thoughts, I don’t know you guys personally so if you cheated or cheat then that’s your bag. For me I will just be an average Joe all my life, accept that and enjoy what I have.

[Kyoshojoe]

To me it's about fun and I don't race so it was never an issue for me. Back in the day I would try out different things just to see if I could improve the performance. Brush cutting, timing, etc. Never really did anything too technical as I was only 13.

I am a firm believer in adhering to the rules and having a level playing field in any competition. There are worse things than losing and that's cheating in my eyes. The rules should be fair and understandable to allow an honest comp.

Pushing the limits of those rules is what progresses the technology though, so rulers will always need to adapt as well.

[makoman1860]

Also have to remember that in some instances and racing clubs, pushing the gray zone was normal, and was in the spirit of the event. One of the groups I raced with it was expected, and part of the contest was seeing what you could sneak by with by interpretation of the rule book. At other events the spirit of the event was to follow rules and run a technically clean race, and I did that as well. As long as those two types of clubs never tried to run together we all had fun. This was not intended to get into a discussion over the merits of cheating ( or running in the gray ), but rather how it was done. For as long as there is a history of a sport, there is a history of pushing the rules.

[JamieB]

This brought up a subject I though would be an interesting one.

The subject is an interesting one. I thought it was an interesting subject so thought I would respond. I don't have any input from a cheating perspective as I have not cheated. I will just sit back then and read the thread if cheats are only intended to respond.

[alien3t]

With this said.

Who is teching at VONATS?

[scr8p]

With this said.

Who is teching at VONATS?

Teching? What's that?

[makoman1860]

Ok, I seriously did not intend this to be a sore subject for some, but rather a historical recording. The cat and mouse game between rule makers and a select breed of racers is a sport in its own right, and has been forever. Some guys prefer to make all the vehicles exactly the same, and for those races we would build and dyno matched motors for an event. Some guys like to compete at the work bench as much as the drivers stand. What I usually found problematic was the individual that wanted to race with the "tinkerers" but did not have the ability to do their own work. So instead of being able to make their own parts they were forced to hire others, or buy parts. This of course gets frustrating as they are just spending money and still not winning as they did not have the intimate knowledge. Like I said, as long as you dont mix the two groups its a fun time.

[Stumpy]

keeping going on this.

-----

there was a time when MOSFET driven servos was considered cheating as the reaction time on those were way faster then a human could even react to.

-----

Making your own tires was kind of a grey area sometimes. many good fabriactors in the pits would split tires into 2 or 3 pieces and glue in different centers because they could mess with traction,,, a bunch of times this got published in RCCA sometimes it actaully lead to a new tire being manufactured.
---

The biggest cheating was done at high levels though.... think about the company swinging a 100,000$ budget at one of those events verse you driving in from California to an even in your station wagon.

you show up with some tires and motors and some batteries they show up with an entire 18 wheeler loaded with parts to try out. the chances they find the combination of parts that worked best at a race is much higher then you would every have a chance of figuring out in a million years.

not only did they show up with a catalog of stuff but prototypes you didn't have access to. they would also have top tier Motors and batteries you could not buy at the hobby shops or from a catalog... remember they would buy like 50,000 units of Sub C batteries to match, the top 1% of the tested batteries stayed in house to go to these events, you got the bottom 50% of the batteries that made it to the hobby shops.

Same with motors.....

remember they had the guys that made the motors you all wanted, there was a science to it they would get the track layout in advance figure out the best motors to make sit there and hand build a bunch of motors prepped just for that single event. that was all they did night and day and got paid for it well.

this is why things change after 2002.... with lipo and brushless there is no real top tier anymore the stuff you get at the hobby shops now is REALLY good stuff.
now the fight has switched to software,,, with manufacturers holding back special Firmware upgrades that you do not have access to to give factory guys an advantage.... that is the newest kind of cheating.
(batteries have this software war going on also, with special firmware for cross over voltage and amperage rates for S1,S2,S3 lipos.)
this is why people are constantly chasing chargers and Brushless ESCS now.... and some stacking statuators.

----

hands down the most fair is at the local level,, guys will cheat but they usually loose interest over time...
the worst is at an international event because you have a field of alphas all wanting to be alpha.

Why would you consider it cheating, just because your competition has more "tools" or "resources" available to them than you do..??

Was there some form of homologation requirement for brushed modified motors back then..?

I mean, there has always been "deep pocket" racers in RC competition for as long as I can remember, but you also must remember that the big manufacturers in this hobby are trying to gain any and every advantage possible, so they can get the win.. Wins on Sunday, sells on Monday...

If you take this from a position of perspective, couldn't most self funded racers say the same about all sponsored drivers at a regular club meet..?