240SB -VS- SPA 480WT

[Hcp22]

Any one that knows the deferens between this two motors?

[Jirka]

240WS 18x2 0,65mm wire. More a offroad motor
480WS 24x4 0.4mm wire. More a 1:12 motor

The best referense to Le Mans and SPA motors is definitely this: http://theoptimahouse.blogspot.com/search/label/MOTORS. See post on 21 Jan 2007

Jirka

[Hcp22]

Thanks for the info Jirka, I should have remember that sight…

[Mad Racer]

Two very different motors. The Spa had newer technology of around 2 yrs.

As mentioned the windings are very different. The Spa a 24t Quad wind while the 240SB is a 18 Double. Both had the better alloy endbell . The Spa series was the first with Kyosho to use the "wet" magnet process. ( Pressed in magnets than charged i think)

In reality when racing off road back with 1200 Cells you had to gear the 240SB really down to make run time. With the Spa 480 you can a way higher ratio. If I can remember in my T'Optima with a 240SB I ran a 12 to 13t pinion. With the Spa a 18t pinion. Both just made run time. The 480 had more top end with good mid range. A bit soft on the bottom end when compared to 240 which had way better bottom end. So much so I snapped the chain off the line a few times.

Than i switched to the Technigold which had way better efficiency and was much more suited in windings for bottom & top end.

A note that Kyosho went to 24t quad with the Spa 480 from the 480 Gold which was a 25t quad. ( Would have been a lot better if they went to a very low 20t with a quad wind)

Really to be fair it would be better to compare the Spa 240 with other 240 motors of Kyosho's.

[Hcp22]

Two very different motors. The Spa had newer technology of around 2 yrs.

As mentioned the windings are very different. The Spa a 24t Quad wind while the 240SB is a 18 Double. Both had the better alloy endbell . The Spa series was the first with Kyosho to use the "wet" magnet process. ( Pressed in magnets than charged i think)

In reality when racing off road back with 1200 Cells you had to gear the 240SB really down to make run time. With the Spa 480 you can a way higher ratio. If I can remember in my T'Optima with a 240SB I ran a 12 to 13t pinion. With the Spa a 18t pinion. Both just made run time. The 480 had more top end with good mid range. A bit soft on the bottom end when compared to 240 which had way better bottom end. So much so I snapped the chain off the line a few times.

Than i switched to the Technigold which had way better efficiency and was much more suited in windings for bottom & top end.

A note that Kyosho went to 24t quad with the Spa 480 from the 480 Gold which was a 25t quad. ( Would have been a lot better if they went to a very low 20t with a quad wind)

Really to be fair it would be better to compare the Spa 240 with other 240 motors of Kyosho's.

I raised the question because “mjtown” have these two motors to choose from, to run his Turbo Scorpion. I recommended the 240SB, but reading what you wrote I think the 480WT is a much better choose for the TS

[SAND SUPER STORE]

Two very different motors. The Spa had newer technology of around 2 yrs.

As mentioned the windings are very different. The Spa a 24t Quad wind while the 240SB is a 18 Double. Both had the better alloy endbell . The Spa series was the first with Kyosho to use the "wet" magnet process. ( Pressed in magnets than charged i think)

In reality when racing off road back with 1200 Cells you had to gear the 240SB really down to make run time. With the Spa 480 you can a way higher ratio. If I can remember in my T'Optima with a 240SB I ran a 12 to 13t pinion. With the Spa a 18t pinion. Both just made run time. The 480 had more top end with good mid range. A bit soft on the bottom end when compared to 240 which had way better bottom end. So much so I snapped the chain off the line a few times.

Than i switched to the Technigold which had way better efficiency and was much more suited in windings for bottom & top end.

A note that Kyosho went to 24t quad with the Spa 480 from the 480 Gold which was a 25t quad. ( Would have been a lot better if they went to a very low 20t with a quad wind)

Really to be fair it would be better to compare the Spa 240 with other 240 motors of Kyosho's.

About LeMans running times:

I think strangely no one had mentioned that the number in this motors is expected running time in seconds with a 1200mah ni-cd battery

240 series were for 4 minute races (240 seconds)
480 series were for 8 minute races (480 seconds)

My first modified motor when I was child was a 480T and it runned at least 7 or 8 minutes at full speed in parking lots with those good old sanyo 1200 scr red packs.

[mjtown]

Hi Lars! Thanks for asking this on my behalf mate

I've just bought an Optima Pro too, and it came with... a Spa 240WS! It looks barely used, and came up nicely after I desoldered it, stripped it down and cleaned it out. It also came with a Kyosho AP36 (which has the same specs as the 360 Gold), so now I have a 240SB, 240WS, 480WT, AP36 (360 Gold) and the original 360E from the Turbo Scorpion kit. I'm spoiled for choice!

The later Kyosho manuals (i.e. Optima, Ultima etc.) came with a nice little chart showing what pinion sizes to use with different motors, but the Turbo Scorpion has none of that

I just used to backyard bash with the TS, but now I'm a bit more careful, and want to try to get the motor and pinion choice right. Can anyone (please) help? There are two different pinion/middle gear combos for the stock Turbo Scorpion (I haven't got an adjustable motor plate going yet) - if I count the pinion, centre gear, counter gear, final pinion and diff spur gear teeth, can I work out a transmission ratio and use some science to ascertain which pinion/centre gear combo to use with different motors? The transmission arrangement for the TS can be seen at http://www.oople.com/rc/manuals/turboscorpion/imagepages/turboscorpion020.html

I figure that the more torque oriented motors like the 480WT will be better for high grip tracks whereas the lower torque, faster spin motors, like the 240SB and 240WS will be better for loose, low grip surfaces. Is that correct?

Please advise!

[Mad Racer]

That's Simple.

Don't use old Kyosho or any other older motor for that matter that is over 10yrs old.

WHY?

The reason is the magnets have lost their strength. They will be very poor in performance. More of a show case motor. The only way around it is to buy a magnet zapper.

Well that's my experiance anyway.

[mjtown]

Interesting - I've had a look at some info re magnetic field deterioration, and there's some evidence that it does happen, but not significantly if the magnet isn't exposed to high temperatures and shock/impact.

Two of these motors were nib - the 240SB and AP36, so they should be ok. The 360E and 480WT were mine from the 80's, and they were barely used (occasional backyard use - restoring the car wasn't difficult, it wasn't damaged) and certainly weren't crashed. I can't vouch for the 240WS though. The comm looks pretty good, though it may have been lathed back in the day. It was certainly dirty. It won't be hard to line it up against the new 240SB though.

Call me an optimist but I reckon that four of these motors should be pretty good, and the fifth remains to be seen.

[Lonestar]

these four mills might be new, they're still based on 25 y.o. technology and WILL disappoint you on the track, if only because they weren't really top-performing motors bitd... Let alone the fact that they are somewhat rare in "new" form and hence command serious value in 2012. Unless you want to run a period Kyosho mill for the sake of running one, I'd really keep them on shelfers where they do a much better job of wowing the crowd

If you really want to run one of them in your scorpion, which itself is based on even older 30 y.o. technology, I'd use the 480, the 240 will only get you to do donuts with these precious sand super tires

Have fun!

Paul

[Bormac]

I'm stinging to get a few of these motors for my Kyosho OPTIMA buggies. Some will be for show while others to be run. I have a mate who has a good motor zapper so I definately had that in mind for the can magnets.

Back in the day I did try the green motor and even back then it was pretty disappointing performance wise. To be honest I think my Kyosho SUPER STOCK 34 was quicker than it.

[Incredible_Serious]

To be honest I think my Kyosho SUPER STOCK 34 was quicker than it.

To be honest, though, you do drive like a girl.....



Alex

[Bormac]

To be honest I think my Kyosho SUPER STOCK 34 was quicker than it.

To be honest, though, you do drive like a girl.....



Alex

.....in a skirt.

[mjtown]

He he he!

I am actually a bit about doing it period style.... the Turbo Scorpion did have a blast with the 240SB and the and Supers at Mitchell Park here in Adelaide about 5 or 6 weeks ago. It did put out a good show of speed, but there was unreliable control, probably because I was in such a rush to get it cooking on a track (for the first time since about 1990) that I neglected to solder the noise capacitors to the motor.

The car went up on blocks after that. The noise capacitors have been soldered now, the Sand Supers and original rims have been retired to shelf duties (replaced by 12" hex adaptors at the rear, Raider rims and vintage Proline rubber) and the chassis rails replaced by http://www.pargustore.com items because of the tree in the centre of the track and a silly moment! It's going to be back on the road in the next few days... hence me thinking about gear ratios etc.

I think I might work out the transmission ration of the Optima and Scorpion and use the chart from the Optima manual to work out which of the two 'kit' pinions to use in the TS with the same motors... and then look for an old CRP slotted motor plate to give me a bit more choice later.

It would still be great to get definitive knowledge of optimum gear ranges for the Le Mans motors though.

Here's the TS by the way:

[Lonestar]

Any "optimal" gear chart from bitd would be useless today unless you use period nicds... most gear charts were optimized for runtime with a bit of consideration for current consumption (which was as much limited by the batts as it was by the mills). With today's modern cells it's different, with lipos it's just not even close once you factor in not only the (MUCH!) higher voltage and available current, but also the lesser weight.

I'd say start with something on the conservative side, ie 10:1, temp the motor, then gear up one tooth at a time. This will get you in the sweet spot much better than any gear chart from 1986

(btw 10:1 is a darn conservative gearing for 2012, but it's probably already 20% higher than anything from that era would advise you to do all my gear charts memories in 10th offroad last millenium are way into the double-digits...)

Paul