Red Fox - Hot Trick Repro - RC Lohas

[CNA75]

There must be a company register in the US (similar to the one in the UK) which contains details of all registered companies. If so, may be worth doing a search at the register for the Sassy name to see if a company still exists with that name. If so, the register would typically publish basic details about that company (e.g. registered head office address and contact details). That might be one way to try and contact the owners and seek their blessing. Also, definitely check the US trademark/copyright register. I would expect that, unless the owners are seriously bringing the Sassy business back, they would probably be quite happy for you to take on the mantle......a sort of legacy, if you like. Obviously, easy for me to say, though, as I'm not taking any risks.

I'm sure I'm not the only one on this forum who would be very interested to hear what designs you are thinking of producing....

[Lowgear]

I will definitely be doing everything I can to make sure I'm in the clear. If nothing else it will help me in my defense case. For designs I have one thing so far thats simple and really doesn't require much designing. But like I was saying in my last post it will be much easier for now anyway to sell parts others design and make who want to sell them under a recognized name for increased sales and exposure. I know RC4WD does something like that for instance.

[CNA75]

Doing some research on Hot Trick stuff and I found this link here to various Hot Trick models - quite interesting, and thought other might be interested too:

http://www.rcchopshop.com/hottrick/woobergoober.html

[mrlexan]

If it helps you guys in any decision to buy one of Emerson's kits (and I would totally recommend it), but I supplied him the bodies for his kits. His kit is top notch quality from top to bottom, inside and outside.

[CNA75]

If it helps you guys in any decision to buy one of Emerson's kits (and I would totally recommend it), but I supplied him the bodies for his kits. His kit is top notch quality from top to bottom, inside and outside.

That is very good to know! I've just bought the Red Fox kit (just couldn't help myself). Whilst I'm not a massive fan of the Sly One body, at least I know it will be of the utmost quality..

[shirochanwrx]

I am very sympathetic to 'Army and others' comment regarding reproduction products, especially in regards to the assault on intellectual property if not outright copyright and/or patent infringement.

There are mitigating elements in regards to Lohas and indeed other repro manufacturers (including our own MrLexan) involved.

Firstly, products that are out of production (sometimes *long* out of production) and are being reproduced on a small scale for enthusiasts are serving a completely different population and operating under a totally different set of circumstances than the original company. In many cases, the product became functionally obsolete and production stopped. The number of people interested in the product decreased until it was no longer economically feasible for the company to continue producing them in its business model (e.g. OOP RPM JRX2 parts, MIP 4x4 conversions, OOP OEM bodies) or the company went out of business (e.g. D*hm's, Hot Trick, Sassy Chassis). People making reproductions are making them on a very small scale and selling them at higher prices to a tiny group of remaining enthusiasts, sometimes with the implied or even explicit approval of the original designer (e.g. Technacraft). These actions do not threaten the original company because that company is no longer extant *or* the product would not be profitable for them to produce and market.

Secondly, these reproduced parts do not threaten the original manufacturer economically or philosophically. This is a *huge* difference between the repro R/C product market and the widespread practice of producing imitation goods overseas and marketing them as original. Certain products, like leather goods, software, music, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics are all priced as they are because there are people developing them living in Japan, the US, Korea, Western Europe, etc who get benefits, pensions, health care, etc while developing the product and they need to make back that investment. Ripping off the product once it's developed is ducking all of the costs of designing it in the first place and threatens the livelihood (and good faith) of the people who invested in making it possible in the first place. None of the R/C repro parts I've seen are "fakes", in that no one is marketing them as original. Any investment in developing the product was recouped years ago during the original product run.

In some ways, the repro market has paid off for the original manufacturers. Vintage and repro products give additional "cred" to established manufacturers that they can't make for themselves. The best Traxxas product ever made (Blue Eagle? TRX-1?) won't be seen in public unless someone is making repro shells for it.

I do not have sympathy for people who dislike the repro market because they feel that it devalues their own vintage stuff. In Tamiya's case, they never promised they wouldn't re-release products, and really, who repackages and repackages the same product more than Tamiya? Kyosho would do it too if they still had their molds. If it was an investment, it was based on false pretenses. If it is the loss of exclusivity now that a product is again widely available, give me a break. Even without repros, if you are wealthy enough, you can buy your way into that club in a week on eBay.

I am personally excited that after a 15 year hiatus I can *finally* purchase a new body and decals for a JRX2. Not because I have become wealthy, but because like-minded people have come up with a way to make the experience of refurbishing vintage/retro R/C cars possible at a price I can afford.

[CNA75]

So, basically, you are distinguishing between "repros" and "copies". The first relating to reproducting a product which is no longer being made, and the second relating to the making of copies of a product which is currently in production. Difference (in these circumstances) being that the second of those amounts to bootlegging and comes at the cost of those who originally designed and are producing the products. The first doesn't have any immediate impact on the original designers/producers provided they no longer exist.

Fair point. Whilst I don't think it is quite that cut and dry, I agree that it is right to distinguish between bootlegs and repro's from a moral perspective...

[MelvinsArmy]

Wow, where to start. You couldn't possibly be sympathetic to my concerns about reproduction parts because you don't seem to have any idea what they are. You've missed my concerns entirely.

First, my beef with reproductions has less to do with who owns the rights to what and more to do with the fact that I like vintage radio control cars. Not bootleg replicas of vintage radio controlled cars. Yes, parts made as exact copies of other people's work is bootlegging. It is fake. By definition. Words mean something, and those two words perfectly describe these fake Hot Trick parts. Your justification that it's okay to reproduce obosolete parts because the original company no longer cares or whatever is crap too. Why not make an original part for these obsolete cars? For the same reasons those Asian bootleggers you mention do perfect knock offs of designer hand bags, nobody would buy a cheap crappy bag that looked like a cheap crappy bag. They want a cheap Louis Vuitton bag to impress their friends with. That is the "fakes is okay" mentality. If they were genuinely into a certain brand they wouldn't bother with the fake one. They would do what someone who is really into something real would do, they would save their money and buy the real thing when one became available. I suppose that's my problem, I'm not into instant gratification.

As for Tamiya re-releasing kits, that does not apply to this. Tamiya made the product in the first place and can do whatever they want with it whenever they want. Same with any original manufacturer.

I can understand reproduction bodies, decals and even tires to a certain extent. They are all perishable parts. Not unlike shock oil or paint.

The only reason to make fake chassis, wheels and other hard goods is for profit. It may not be much profit (although they wish it was) it is done for profit. Bootleggers like to say that they are helping the collecting community with their services. In reality they see a demand, based on auction prices for old parts and then they see a business opportunity. That's all. It's the same as the fake handbag industry. "Hey, people like this thing that is kind of hard to find, they pay $XXX for it, I can make an exact copy and sell it for $XX." If they had an original idea in their head that was worth a crap they would then be providing a real service to the world. Instead they provide the same service as a leech or tick. Not only do they suck, but they drain their host. The host being the vintage collecting community.

The reason why we started this board was because we like old radio controlled cars. Now those of us who are into vintage radio controlled cars have to play a guessing game as to whether or not an item of interest that is up for sale is actually the part they were looking for or a facsimile of that part. Eventually the demand for certain reproduction parts will dry up just as the demand for the originals did years ago. Then the reproducers will move onto the next fly-by-night idea and we'll be stuck trying to ID parts as vintage or fake.

[mrlexan]

You all need to read Mel's post knowing that he's an artist by trade and in the 5 years I have been around it always strikes a nerve with him, rightfully so, we'll have an opinion.

[mrlexan]

Also, I felt it important to post what I posted behind closed doors in the mods forum, just in case someone take Mel's post about profit to heart. Not saying rules don't apply to me, just saying where I am coming from, at least in my mind:

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion and they can say what they want, but I am not in it for profit. Not to sound pompous, but I make a very good salary with my day job. If I can't live off that, then I am an idiot. I have been blessed in my life on many fronts and I use that one blessing (salary) to do this as a hobbyist for the hobbyist, as I grew tired of having naked cars with having the once a year opp to bid up through the nose on a NOS body."

In the end I do this for myself (not at face value of what that means), but because I am literally obsessed with lexan, always have been even BITD and for you guys so you don't have to parade around naked. I want new unpainted bodies of stuff that is impossible to find. The End (of my book.... for what it is worth).

[MelvinsArmy]

You all need to read Mel's post knowing that he's an artist by trade.

Yeah, someone who creates original work and would never, ever, ever, consider stealing or copying someone else's work.

There is a word that has been missing from this brief debate. Here it is.
Definition of INTEGRITY
1: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility



Jay, you know I've got no beef with what you're doing.

[mrlexan]

Jay, you know I've got no beef with what you're doing.

I know, but we can't control how other take words especially over the internet. I felt it necessary to state my perspective before people interpeted words as they saw fit. I am good.

[murphy3428]

Ihave to agree with MelvinsArmy for one how can you list a new item forsale as vintage item. The biggest part of the vintage collecting to me is the hunt and the satisfaction of finding a long lost item not buying a knockoff.If you have the means why not just create something new not just a copy.I feel that the hobby has suffered because of all the bootlegers out there. As for the remaking of parts like tires bodies I don't feel that creates the same problems as remaking a complete vehicle thats my 2 cents.

[CNA75]

Wow, where to start. You couldn't possibly be sympathetic to my concerns about reproduction parts because you don't seem to have any idea what they are. You've missed my concerns entirely.

First, my beef with reproductions has less to do with who owns the rights to what and more to do with the fact that I like vintage radio control cars. Not bootleg replicas of vintage radio controlled cars. Yes, parts made as exact copies of other people's work is bootlegging. It is fake. By definition. Words mean something, and those two words perfectly describe these fake Hot Trick parts. Your justification that it's okay to reproduce obosolete parts because the original company no longer cares or whatever is crap too. Why not make an original part for these obsolete cars? For the same reasons those Asian bootleggers you mention do perfect knock offs of designer hand bags, nobody would buy a cheap crappy bag that looked like a cheap crappy bag. They want a cheap Louis Vuitton bag to impress their friends with. That is the "fakes is okay" mentality. If they were genuinely into a certain brand they wouldn't bother with the fake one. They would do what someone who is really into something real would do, they would save their money and buy the real thing when one became available. I suppose that's my problem, I'm not into instant gratification.

As for Tamiya re-releasing kits, that does not apply to this. Tamiya made the product in the first place and can do whatever they want with it whenever they want. Same with any original manufacturer.

I can understand reproduction bodies, decals and even tires to a certain extent. They are all perishable parts. Not unlike shock oil or paint.

The only reason to make fake chassis, wheels and other hard goods is for profit. It may not be much profit (although they wish it was) it is done for profit. Bootleggers like to say that they are helping the collecting community with their services. In reality they see a demand, based on auction prices for old parts and then they see a business opportunity. That's all. It's the same as the fake handbag industry. "Hey, people like this thing that is kind of hard to find, they pay $XXX for it, I can make an exact copy and sell it for $XX." If they had an original idea in their head that was worth a crap they would then be providing a real service to the world. Instead they provide the same service as a leech or tick. Not only do they suck, but they drain their host. The host being the vintage collecting community.

The reason why we started this board was because we like old radio controlled cars. Now those of us who are into vintage radio controlled cars have to play a guessing game as to whether or not an item of interest that is up for sale is actually the part they were looking for or a facsimile of that part. Eventually the demand for certain reproduction parts will dry up just as the demand for the originals did years ago. Then the reproducers will move onto the next fly-by-night idea and we'll be stuck trying to ID parts as vintage or fake.

I'm not sure I totally follow the logic of what you are saying. Having said that, I am totally behind you in respect of your views on bootlegging/rip-offs. Reason: it comes at the cost of those that created and produce the relevant items. E.g. rip-offs of Louis Vuitton bags undermine the returns that Louis Vuitton makes on its bags, which in turn undermines that company's ability to recompense its staff/designers, which in turn has an impact on all its staffs' livelihoods. That is immoral.

However, reproducing parts which are no longer made by companies which no longer exist does not have the same moral dilemma as the above. It is not having an impact on the original creator's/company's livelihood. Reproductions will also never be coveted as much as the originals by true collectors/vintage enthusiasts. I do, however, take your point that as time goes by it will make it harder to identify which was original and which was a repro, but that still doesn't change the distinction between the two and it still doesn't result in ruining/negatively affecting peoples'/companies' lives.

[MelvinsArmy]

No, it doesn't have an impact on the original owner's livelihood. That isn't the point. What it does is pollute the supply that has existed un-tainted for 20+ years. It isn't a moral dilemma about taking food out of workers' mouths. It's a creative moral dilemma. There is one other dilemma which you don't seem to understand. You bootleg highly desirable part X. Someone sees it on ebay, listed by someone who bought the part off of you. They fail to mention that it is in fact not a vintage part. The buyer puts in a huge bid and wins it. Now that person has been ripped off. You are at least partially responsible.

Why is it so important to make these parts almost exactly like the originals? Why can't they just be similar? Heck, even if they were blue instead of red.