2009 auto engine of the year
- germanrc10gt
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
hi PBR Allstar
you are right, that vw tfsi engine is not that bad, but it is one turbo engine.
with some exceptions, bmw tries to avoid building any turbo charger or compressor stuff.
in diesels they do. it is used by companies that don't know how to squeeze out maximum power without all that extra stuff that makes the engine unreliable, heavy, and a guzzler. the reason why all those companies build turbo nowadays is: the can use a cheap mass production engine (the build zillions of that fsi engines in vw, audi, seat, skoda), add a turbo and you got one powerful engine. and today, they try to keep displacement small and few cylinders for lower fuel consumption, combine it with a turbo and compressor for both low and high revs to make it work efficiently in any rev range.
that is not what bmw do. that company stands for a different way of constructing engines. but i do admit it is a different price range, and you know that. the father of my buddy had a audi s4 avant, 2.7 liter displacement, v6 engine, turbo. up to today, audi still uses rubber belts for their valves, camshafts (ok i don't exactly know the american word for that, nockenwelle in german)
that is ridiculous in such an engine!!! he had driven it 98 thousand kilometers, and it has to be changed every 100 thousand kilometers, which is about 500 bucks. that belt broke 2000 kilometers before that change. the engine got completely destroyed, and that was not a singular incident with an audi engine. search german auto forums with audi related stuff and you know why bmw is #1 premium car maker in the world. no rubber belts, chain driven engines for almost 100 years! the audi crate engine was around 9.000 euro. and audi didn't help with any cent. a bmw crate engine entry level six in a row (3. liter, 218 ps) is around 15.000 euro, see the difference (titan, magnesium engine block!!!) check the internet for the weights of a audi v6 and r6 bmw, it is a 50 kilo (100 pounds) difference!!! generally speaking audi and vw do have a lot of problems with their engines, check autobild.de for the latest 2009 tüv report that shows so many flaws for the vw turbo engines, just as you had with that engine. guess what make had the least problems with their engines
so again, that vw engines are good engines. i have had a vw golf II gt for 14 years and have never had any serious issues with that engine. but a bmw engine is a different world. the only real and annoying problem about bmw is a lot of the guys that buy and drive these vehicles. but you can't blame the cars for that.
and btw my name is not fritz. i actually don't know anyone with that name. must have been before my time. we got plenty of kevins around here nowadays
that engine of the year awards are given by a group of motor journalists, members of engineering associations and engine professionals from all over the world, a lot of them from the usa. and no, not by bmw or by german gearheads. neither by the great canadian auto makers, slotcarrod
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Engine_of_the_Year#Manufacturer_rankings
check this american website, it says it all with few words. nuff said.
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/index.htm
you are right, that vw tfsi engine is not that bad, but it is one turbo engine.
with some exceptions, bmw tries to avoid building any turbo charger or compressor stuff.
in diesels they do. it is used by companies that don't know how to squeeze out maximum power without all that extra stuff that makes the engine unreliable, heavy, and a guzzler. the reason why all those companies build turbo nowadays is: the can use a cheap mass production engine (the build zillions of that fsi engines in vw, audi, seat, skoda), add a turbo and you got one powerful engine. and today, they try to keep displacement small and few cylinders for lower fuel consumption, combine it with a turbo and compressor for both low and high revs to make it work efficiently in any rev range.
that is not what bmw do. that company stands for a different way of constructing engines. but i do admit it is a different price range, and you know that. the father of my buddy had a audi s4 avant, 2.7 liter displacement, v6 engine, turbo. up to today, audi still uses rubber belts for their valves, camshafts (ok i don't exactly know the american word for that, nockenwelle in german)
that is ridiculous in such an engine!!! he had driven it 98 thousand kilometers, and it has to be changed every 100 thousand kilometers, which is about 500 bucks. that belt broke 2000 kilometers before that change. the engine got completely destroyed, and that was not a singular incident with an audi engine. search german auto forums with audi related stuff and you know why bmw is #1 premium car maker in the world. no rubber belts, chain driven engines for almost 100 years! the audi crate engine was around 9.000 euro. and audi didn't help with any cent. a bmw crate engine entry level six in a row (3. liter, 218 ps) is around 15.000 euro, see the difference (titan, magnesium engine block!!!) check the internet for the weights of a audi v6 and r6 bmw, it is a 50 kilo (100 pounds) difference!!! generally speaking audi and vw do have a lot of problems with their engines, check autobild.de for the latest 2009 tüv report that shows so many flaws for the vw turbo engines, just as you had with that engine. guess what make had the least problems with their engines
so again, that vw engines are good engines. i have had a vw golf II gt for 14 years and have never had any serious issues with that engine. but a bmw engine is a different world. the only real and annoying problem about bmw is a lot of the guys that buy and drive these vehicles. but you can't blame the cars for that.
and btw my name is not fritz. i actually don't know anyone with that name. must have been before my time. we got plenty of kevins around here nowadays
that engine of the year awards are given by a group of motor journalists, members of engineering associations and engine professionals from all over the world, a lot of them from the usa. and no, not by bmw or by german gearheads. neither by the great canadian auto makers, slotcarrod
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Engine_of_the_Year#Manufacturer_rankings
check this american website, it says it all with few words. nuff said.
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/index.htm
Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
Germanrc10gt--
I have relatives that live in England and are auto techs. I used to be an auto tech here in the states. I worked on a lot European cars during the time and everyone I talk to including the guys at the BMW dealerships, we all have the same opinion: they all have a lot of problems, but jaguar is the worst closely followed by Range rover, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and vw. Don't get me wrong I love vw's. My brother talked to one of our uncles in England and he told us that the European cars get strapped down with so much more emissions equipment to come over here that it ends up harming the engine. Personally I haven't had any good experiences with bmws or jags.
I have relatives that live in England and are auto techs. I used to be an auto tech here in the states. I worked on a lot European cars during the time and everyone I talk to including the guys at the BMW dealerships, we all have the same opinion: they all have a lot of problems, but jaguar is the worst closely followed by Range rover, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and vw. Don't get me wrong I love vw's. My brother talked to one of our uncles in England and he told us that the European cars get strapped down with so much more emissions equipment to come over here that it ends up harming the engine. Personally I haven't had any good experiences with bmws or jags.
- germanrc10gt
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
i would never ever claim they are completely flawless or perfect. no engine is. and i'm not talking about
singular personal experiences. any guy that works for audi or vw or ford will say bmw are the crap. it often is just about personal favs. if you've had one bad experience with one make or another, you'll avoid it in the future or tell bad things about it. from your personal perspective that is just right. but that's not the point. i'm talking about general construction and design principles, and from that perspective there is nothing better that the bavarian titan. the more you bolt on an engine with chargers and stuff like that the more complicated it gets, no discussion about it, don't you think. or every tüv or dekra report on engine problems is just fiction or a lie. and the guys in the engine of the year commission are pure idiots. how probable is that?
what they change for the us market - i don't know. the e36 m3 for the us had 240 hp, ours 286-321. generally speaking the more power and revs the more wearout of an engine. so the european engines should be even worse, don't see that.
so again, nuff said, i don't wanna get dismissed from this forum but if anyone will ever again compare a bimmer engine to a japanese motor or a vw or ford or subaru or audi i'll start taking that as one personal insult, and if so then: blitzkrieg
singular personal experiences. any guy that works for audi or vw or ford will say bmw are the crap. it often is just about personal favs. if you've had one bad experience with one make or another, you'll avoid it in the future or tell bad things about it. from your personal perspective that is just right. but that's not the point. i'm talking about general construction and design principles, and from that perspective there is nothing better that the bavarian titan. the more you bolt on an engine with chargers and stuff like that the more complicated it gets, no discussion about it, don't you think. or every tüv or dekra report on engine problems is just fiction or a lie. and the guys in the engine of the year commission are pure idiots. how probable is that?
what they change for the us market - i don't know. the e36 m3 for the us had 240 hp, ours 286-321. generally speaking the more power and revs the more wearout of an engine. so the european engines should be even worse, don't see that.
so again, nuff said, i don't wanna get dismissed from this forum but if anyone will ever again compare a bimmer engine to a japanese motor or a vw or ford or subaru or audi i'll start taking that as one personal insult, and if so then: blitzkrieg
- slotcarrod
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
Don't get me wrong "Hanz"! I bleed German, my sir name is Littau. I have a Uncle that fought on the Eastern front in the SS. (I also had an Uncle that fought for the Canadians and have another that went to a concentration camp because he was a Jehovah's Witness. What a mixed up family I have!)
I respect German engineering, but if BMW is the best, then why are they not the #1 car manufacturer in the World?
Thought I would poke the bear!
I respect German engineering, but if BMW is the best, then why are they not the #1 car manufacturer in the World?
Thought I would poke the bear!
Rod Littau
Slotcarrod's Rumpus Room: http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=16113
25 Years of the RC10: http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=13059
Slotcarrod's Rumpus Room: http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=16113
25 Years of the RC10: http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=13059
- germanrc10gt
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
hi slotcarrod,
1. it is spelled hans. with an s. not z.
2. bmw is #1 world car maker in its market (around 1.4 units). they have around 8 billion dollars cash right now. it's the premium segment of the world car market. make no mistake. please do not compare bmw to toyota or vw or gm. if you tell bmw hey toyota is bigger than you they will start laughing. or get angry for that insult. they will tell you if you want cheap and foreign, go away. toyota is for the masses. a toyota has white paint and drives around in the sahara desert, or the african bush. or in australia. it is driven by soccer moms in the us. and by people that are > 60 years old in germany. or teachers that want to make a statement against bmw and mercedes and make the world a better place with their prius . if you are looking for cheap boring crap, stick to your toyota. or like helmut panke former bmw ceo once said: "we can only do premium. we do not know how to do it bad and cheap. if you are looking for something cheap, don't come to us.then, we are not the right make for you."
(http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-31182795.html)
compare its production numbers to mercedes, audi, jaguar, lexus and infiniti. that is the market for those companies. economists define a market according to a functional restitution.
and please don't tell me about ss and stuff like that. i have nothing to do with that. i feel sorry that your uncle had to fight for that criminal organisation. no reason to be proud of that. btw where is this discussion goin anyway...
1. it is spelled hans. with an s. not z.
2. bmw is #1 world car maker in its market (around 1.4 units). they have around 8 billion dollars cash right now. it's the premium segment of the world car market. make no mistake. please do not compare bmw to toyota or vw or gm. if you tell bmw hey toyota is bigger than you they will start laughing. or get angry for that insult. they will tell you if you want cheap and foreign, go away. toyota is for the masses. a toyota has white paint and drives around in the sahara desert, or the african bush. or in australia. it is driven by soccer moms in the us. and by people that are > 60 years old in germany. or teachers that want to make a statement against bmw and mercedes and make the world a better place with their prius . if you are looking for cheap boring crap, stick to your toyota. or like helmut panke former bmw ceo once said: "we can only do premium. we do not know how to do it bad and cheap. if you are looking for something cheap, don't come to us.then, we are not the right make for you."
(http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-31182795.html)
compare its production numbers to mercedes, audi, jaguar, lexus and infiniti. that is the market for those companies. economists define a market according to a functional restitution.
and please don't tell me about ss and stuff like that. i have nothing to do with that. i feel sorry that your uncle had to fight for that criminal organisation. no reason to be proud of that. btw where is this discussion goin anyway...
- RC10resto
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- germanrc10gt
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
thank you. still a lot of guys in the u.s. that know something about cars and engines.
Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
I bleed german also, I have a vw tattoo and have always owned vw's since I was 18. I love bmw's and audi's, not fond of mercedes though. I just don't feel that bmw makes everything great. Yes they use timing chains, so do other manufacturers and they all need to replaced due to stretching, although yes they typically last a little longer than timing belts. I have had numerous experiences working on bmw's and my friend works at a bmw dealership. I feel after working on a few hundred of them that they have problems. I think a lot of it is due to the fact they use parts that are not commonly used elsewhere. Case in point is the Lucas brand wiring. Lucas uses a lot of different connectors that are used only in europe (as far as I can tell), they also seem to use the same color wires for multiple applications making it harder to find faults in the system. I personally feel that bmw, mercedes, audi, etc. put sooo much technology into a car i.e. voice activation this and that, then there is numerous problems and the cars start to fall apart from one system faulting.
I won't tell you Ford or Gm is superior. Ford has a reputation as being junk and it's been deserved over time. All of our american brands had a decade or two of junk vehicles. Unfortunately we were late catching up with the rest of the world with technology.
I agree with you germanrc10gt, to the extent that they use turbos for cheap power. Although look at a lot of race cars and you will see that most race cars use turbos for power because of the cost savings, the weight savings, and the gain in horsepower.
I won't tell you Ford or Gm is superior. Ford has a reputation as being junk and it's been deserved over time. All of our american brands had a decade or two of junk vehicles. Unfortunately we were late catching up with the rest of the world with technology.
I agree with you germanrc10gt, to the extent that they use turbos for cheap power. Although look at a lot of race cars and you will see that most race cars use turbos for power because of the cost savings, the weight savings, and the gain in horsepower.
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
skunk werkz - You forgot Honda aeroplane engines and their moto GP winning bikes as well.
Lets face it guys all manufacturers have their own market segment that they spend more time developing. If we are going to compare engines surely we should be looking at similar priced vehicles/engine capacity.
Lets face it guys all manufacturers have their own market segment that they spend more time developing. If we are going to compare engines surely we should be looking at similar priced vehicles/engine capacity.
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
Yep you are no doubt right..here are two more 2009 engine of the year lists..http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/ ... this list goes back to 1995 then has a list of the best of the previous century .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward's_10_Best_Enginesuzzi wrote:skunk werkz - You forgot Honda aeroplane engines and their moto GP winning bikes as well.
Lets face it guys all manufacturers have their own market segment that they spend more time developing. If we are going to compare engines surely we should be looking at similar priced vehicles/engine capacity.
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
What about the Diesotto? What are they still around?..I thought they disappeared during the 60's..
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
Just kiddin .... DeSoto was a car company decades ago...Drusky wrote:60s? I thought it was a new concept that Merc came up with.
- shodog
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Re: 2009 auto engine of the year
BMW makes a nice engine for sure but it's hard to be a fan boy when last night I spent $175 for two oxygen sensors for my 540i.
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