The Kyosho Optima-Lazer-TF-GP Spider lineage
Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:26 am
Splitting this off the other thread:
I said the gearboxes were similar in design, not the same. Screw holes are all off. I just wonder whether the ZX-S was designed by the same people who did the TF-2, 3 and 4 cars, based on similarities in design.
The following is based on some facts and some speculation based on gearbox patterns:
1) In the beginning we have the Optima Mid SWB and Kyosho's early GP cars (Stinger, Stinger Mk.II), which share the same gearbox mount patterns.
2) 1990 or so: These are followed by the Optima Mid LWB and then the GP-10 (Peugeot 405 etc. with offset main shaft). The latter use re-engineered Stinger gearboxes, just like the Rampage uses one in the rear combined with a re-engineered Ultima front bulkhead. The Optima LWB is used as the basis for a few wide touring and dirt oval electric cars. The Slingshot should be from the same time (it shares some Optima Mid parts and fits into the lineage in another way, too).
3) 1992-1994: The Lazer ZX comes along. It shares the same gearbox patterns as the Optima Mid and GP-10. It is used for a few more wide touring cars, either in its ZX incarnation or in its ZX Sport incarnation. Some rally cars are released on the Lazer Alpha platform (el cheapo POS Lazer). Two upgrade sets are released for the GP-10: one with the center shaft conversion (later GP-10 cars are released with this in the box), and one called the "Multi Link Suspension set", which is just a set of two Lazer ZX front suspensions with some new parts. The GP-10 with center shaft and Lazer suspension set (not the Multilink set) will become the Inferno-10. Around this time, something new appears: The Kyosho Spider (TF-1, Tour Force 1), the first narrow electric touring car by Kyosho. This is a Optima Mid SWB (!) with narrow suspension arms, for which several new options are released (carbon chassis, swing bars, motor plate...). This car appears to have had a limited release only, as it's incredibly hard to find. Then the Kyosho Spider is released (TF-2, completely new design with open gearboxes, alloy chassis and shock towers).
So let's recapitulate for a moment (1992-1993):
EP Off-road: Optima SWB => Optima LWB => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport
EP On-road: Optima LWB/Slingshot => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer Alpha (el cheapo Lazer)
EP On-road #2: TF-1 (Optima SWB with narrow suspension) => TF-2
4WD GP: Stinger => GP-10 (offset shaft) => GP-10 (center shaft) ------> Inferno-10 (center shaft + Lazer arms)
4) 1994-1996: The Lazer ZX is upgraded into the ZX-R, ZX-R Mk. II, and ZX-RR. The Lazer Alpha continues to be sold. The Spider is developed further, yielding a chassis kit with CF chassis plate included and a race chassis kit called TF-2R (really hard arms and CF everything, teflon shocks). Here it is notable that the gearboxes remain compatible with earlier chassis, despite being open designs consisting of two machined nylon sideplates each. The rear belt is a Lazer belt and the diffs are also Lazer, but upgraded to a better design later on. The Japanese Team Atlas comes in somewhere, and possibly serves as a defacto development team for Kyosho. A thing to keep in mind here is that Team Atlas has a very fancy pattern they always use on top decks... Some people discover the TF-2 makes a pretty good off-road buggy when Lazer arms are added. The GP Spider starts to be developed. Guess what, it uses Slingshot gearboxes!
5) 1997-1998: The Lazer ZX-S comes along. Its gearboxes follow the TF gearbox philosophy of two side plates. It has the Team Atlas pattern on its top deck (Lazer ZX-S = Team Atlas Works Lazer ZX?). The TF-2 is replaced by the TF-3, which uses the servo placement as used on Team Atlas' TF-2 (and Cross' TF-2R) chassis. A race kit, called the TF-3R, is released. The GP Spider sees further development. Team Atlas releases a slew of options for the TF-2/3.
6) 1999: Ultima RB is released (we'll see how this slots in later on). TF-3R '99 is released for a very short time. It drops the separate servo plate of the previous releaaes and features high shock towers. Some kits may have had more options included than others (regular kit is full CF and hard suspension parts, additional options were alloy hinge pin mounts and swing bars). ZX-S is upgraded. TF-4R is announced near the end of the year. GP Spider Mk. II is released, with new open gearboxes, remains backwards compatible with earlier version. Lazer Alpha is rereleased as Lazer 2000 with reinforced chassis.
So let's recapitulate for a moment (1992-1999):
EP Off-road: Optima SWB => Optima LWB => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer ZX-S (evolved from TF-2-based buggy/Team Atlas TF-2/3 crossed with Lazer ZX-R?) => Lazer ZX-S Evo
EP On-road: Optima LWB/Slingshot => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer Alpha (el cheapo Lazer) => Lazer 2000 ------------> wide EP on-road car lineage dies off.
EP On-road #2: Spider TF-1 (Optima SWB with narrow suspension) => Spider TF-2 => TF-2 chassis kit => TF-2R chassis kit => TF-3 => TF-3 chassis kit => TF-3R chassis kit => TF-3R '99 chassis kit => TF-4R (has some Lazer lineage?)
4WD GP: Stinger => GP-10 (offset shaft) => GP-10 (center shaft) ------> Inferno-10 (center shaft + Lazer arms) ----------> replaced by Super10 FW-03 and FW-04 ------------> wide GP-10 car lineage dies off.
4WD GP #2: Slingshot (EP) ------------> GP Spider => GP Spider Mk. II ------------> FW-05 and other later Pure Ten GP cars (death of GP Spider).
7) 2000-2003: TF-4R is released. The gearboxes look like redesigned Lazer ZX-S gearboxes. The top deck may be the same length (I have this top deck that doesn't fit anything else...). Car receives very little factory development, and lacks some stuff you'd expect (swing bars), but is very high quality and virtually indestructible. Options released increase indestructibility (4 mm shock towers, delrin diff halves, etc.). Team Atlas releases a (very hard to find these days) TF-4.5 upgrade set consisting of an upgraded suspension, CF parts, and some other bits. KX-One is released, with slew of options. Ultima RB moves into its final evolution and features...modified Lazer ZX-S rear arms. These same arms show up on the unreleased belt-drive ZX-5 prototype.
So let's recapitulate for a moment (2000-2003), leaving out the dead lineages:
EP Off-road: Optima SWB => Optima LWB => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer ZX-S (evolved from TF-2-based buggy/Team Atlas TF-2/3 crossed with Lazer ZX-R?) => Lazer ZX-S Evo -------------> Ultima RB Type R Evo II (rear arms) -------------> Lazer ZX-5 belt-drive prototype => End of classic Lazer era.
EP On-road #2: Spider TF-1 (Optima SWB with narrow suspension) => Spider TF-2 => TF-2 chassis kit => TF-2R chassis kit => TF-3 => TF-3 chassis kit => TF-3R chassis kit => TF-3R '99 chassis kit => TF-4R (has some Lazer lineage?) => TF-4.5 (Team Atlassed TF-4R) => End of classic Tour Force lineage when Team Atlas starts developing their own cars and win with them in Japan.
EP On-road #3: KX-One
EP On-road #4: ZX-5 (shaft drive) => TF-5 etc. Not interesting to me.
Speculation in the above: Relationship between Kyosho and Team Atlas, links between car designs that go beyond actual similarities between parts.
Stuff I probably should do: post pictures showing similarities and various Tour Force designs. Having recently finally managed to track down the complete TF-4.5 Team Atlas conversion that ought to be a little easier...
Well, no, unless you're talking steering set-up, screws, and some minor suspension and drivetrain bits.rccars4sal wrote:So, might tf4 parts be usable as spares for a zx-s?
I said the gearboxes were similar in design, not the same. Screw holes are all off. I just wonder whether the ZX-S was designed by the same people who did the TF-2, 3 and 4 cars, based on similarities in design.
The following is based on some facts and some speculation based on gearbox patterns:
1) In the beginning we have the Optima Mid SWB and Kyosho's early GP cars (Stinger, Stinger Mk.II), which share the same gearbox mount patterns.
2) 1990 or so: These are followed by the Optima Mid LWB and then the GP-10 (Peugeot 405 etc. with offset main shaft). The latter use re-engineered Stinger gearboxes, just like the Rampage uses one in the rear combined with a re-engineered Ultima front bulkhead. The Optima LWB is used as the basis for a few wide touring and dirt oval electric cars. The Slingshot should be from the same time (it shares some Optima Mid parts and fits into the lineage in another way, too).
3) 1992-1994: The Lazer ZX comes along. It shares the same gearbox patterns as the Optima Mid and GP-10. It is used for a few more wide touring cars, either in its ZX incarnation or in its ZX Sport incarnation. Some rally cars are released on the Lazer Alpha platform (el cheapo POS Lazer). Two upgrade sets are released for the GP-10: one with the center shaft conversion (later GP-10 cars are released with this in the box), and one called the "Multi Link Suspension set", which is just a set of two Lazer ZX front suspensions with some new parts. The GP-10 with center shaft and Lazer suspension set (not the Multilink set) will become the Inferno-10. Around this time, something new appears: The Kyosho Spider (TF-1, Tour Force 1), the first narrow electric touring car by Kyosho. This is a Optima Mid SWB (!) with narrow suspension arms, for which several new options are released (carbon chassis, swing bars, motor plate...). This car appears to have had a limited release only, as it's incredibly hard to find. Then the Kyosho Spider is released (TF-2, completely new design with open gearboxes, alloy chassis and shock towers).
So let's recapitulate for a moment (1992-1993):
EP Off-road: Optima SWB => Optima LWB => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport
EP On-road: Optima LWB/Slingshot => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer Alpha (el cheapo Lazer)
EP On-road #2: TF-1 (Optima SWB with narrow suspension) => TF-2
4WD GP: Stinger => GP-10 (offset shaft) => GP-10 (center shaft) ------> Inferno-10 (center shaft + Lazer arms)
4) 1994-1996: The Lazer ZX is upgraded into the ZX-R, ZX-R Mk. II, and ZX-RR. The Lazer Alpha continues to be sold. The Spider is developed further, yielding a chassis kit with CF chassis plate included and a race chassis kit called TF-2R (really hard arms and CF everything, teflon shocks). Here it is notable that the gearboxes remain compatible with earlier chassis, despite being open designs consisting of two machined nylon sideplates each. The rear belt is a Lazer belt and the diffs are also Lazer, but upgraded to a better design later on. The Japanese Team Atlas comes in somewhere, and possibly serves as a defacto development team for Kyosho. A thing to keep in mind here is that Team Atlas has a very fancy pattern they always use on top decks... Some people discover the TF-2 makes a pretty good off-road buggy when Lazer arms are added. The GP Spider starts to be developed. Guess what, it uses Slingshot gearboxes!
5) 1997-1998: The Lazer ZX-S comes along. Its gearboxes follow the TF gearbox philosophy of two side plates. It has the Team Atlas pattern on its top deck (Lazer ZX-S = Team Atlas Works Lazer ZX?). The TF-2 is replaced by the TF-3, which uses the servo placement as used on Team Atlas' TF-2 (and Cross' TF-2R) chassis. A race kit, called the TF-3R, is released. The GP Spider sees further development. Team Atlas releases a slew of options for the TF-2/3.
6) 1999: Ultima RB is released (we'll see how this slots in later on). TF-3R '99 is released for a very short time. It drops the separate servo plate of the previous releaaes and features high shock towers. Some kits may have had more options included than others (regular kit is full CF and hard suspension parts, additional options were alloy hinge pin mounts and swing bars). ZX-S is upgraded. TF-4R is announced near the end of the year. GP Spider Mk. II is released, with new open gearboxes, remains backwards compatible with earlier version. Lazer Alpha is rereleased as Lazer 2000 with reinforced chassis.
So let's recapitulate for a moment (1992-1999):
EP Off-road: Optima SWB => Optima LWB => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer ZX-S (evolved from TF-2-based buggy/Team Atlas TF-2/3 crossed with Lazer ZX-R?) => Lazer ZX-S Evo
EP On-road: Optima LWB/Slingshot => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer Alpha (el cheapo Lazer) => Lazer 2000 ------------> wide EP on-road car lineage dies off.
EP On-road #2: Spider TF-1 (Optima SWB with narrow suspension) => Spider TF-2 => TF-2 chassis kit => TF-2R chassis kit => TF-3 => TF-3 chassis kit => TF-3R chassis kit => TF-3R '99 chassis kit => TF-4R (has some Lazer lineage?)
4WD GP: Stinger => GP-10 (offset shaft) => GP-10 (center shaft) ------> Inferno-10 (center shaft + Lazer arms) ----------> replaced by Super10 FW-03 and FW-04 ------------> wide GP-10 car lineage dies off.
4WD GP #2: Slingshot (EP) ------------> GP Spider => GP Spider Mk. II ------------> FW-05 and other later Pure Ten GP cars (death of GP Spider).
7) 2000-2003: TF-4R is released. The gearboxes look like redesigned Lazer ZX-S gearboxes. The top deck may be the same length (I have this top deck that doesn't fit anything else...). Car receives very little factory development, and lacks some stuff you'd expect (swing bars), but is very high quality and virtually indestructible. Options released increase indestructibility (4 mm shock towers, delrin diff halves, etc.). Team Atlas releases a (very hard to find these days) TF-4.5 upgrade set consisting of an upgraded suspension, CF parts, and some other bits. KX-One is released, with slew of options. Ultima RB moves into its final evolution and features...modified Lazer ZX-S rear arms. These same arms show up on the unreleased belt-drive ZX-5 prototype.
So let's recapitulate for a moment (2000-2003), leaving out the dead lineages:
EP Off-road: Optima SWB => Optima LWB => Lazer ZX & ZX Sport => Lazer ZX-S (evolved from TF-2-based buggy/Team Atlas TF-2/3 crossed with Lazer ZX-R?) => Lazer ZX-S Evo -------------> Ultima RB Type R Evo II (rear arms) -------------> Lazer ZX-5 belt-drive prototype => End of classic Lazer era.
EP On-road #2: Spider TF-1 (Optima SWB with narrow suspension) => Spider TF-2 => TF-2 chassis kit => TF-2R chassis kit => TF-3 => TF-3 chassis kit => TF-3R chassis kit => TF-3R '99 chassis kit => TF-4R (has some Lazer lineage?) => TF-4.5 (Team Atlassed TF-4R) => End of classic Tour Force lineage when Team Atlas starts developing their own cars and win with them in Japan.
EP On-road #3: KX-One
EP On-road #4: ZX-5 (shaft drive) => TF-5 etc. Not interesting to me.
Speculation in the above: Relationship between Kyosho and Team Atlas, links between car designs that go beyond actual similarities between parts.
Stuff I probably should do: post pictures showing similarities and various Tour Force designs. Having recently finally managed to track down the complete TF-4.5 Team Atlas conversion that ought to be a little easier...
