2010 VINTAGE OFFROAD NATIONALS OFFICIAL THREAD• SEPT 16-19TH

[Erich Reichert]

the Frog was in retirement last year, he has some sort of Supershot or something along those lines. Rules say 2wd, 4wd, 2ws and 4ws. The point of the class is more the plastic chassis design "entry level" style cars. I'm glad you had fun no matter what class you ran and I know you meant no offense. Now run your car in Classic and come this year!

[Brandon G]

I ran the Frog in the classic class and the Supershot in 4wd. I wanted to run both cars and it seemed the 'shot naturally belonged in 4wd. I would have to back and look at lap times, but I don't think there was any distinct advantage between the two. Traffic was probably the biggest factor.

[tecnica2001]

NEW OFFICIAL SPONSORS!!!

Tamiya
Team Associated
Tekin
Team Trinity
RCTVLive
RC10Talk.com

More to come soon!

I'm also excited to announce yet another new class for 2010!!! For those of you who want to put down the ponies, this year the Vintage Nationals has just the class for you! Introducing 2WD SUPER STOCK. Rules allow for more loosely "vintage" cars and much higher power. Here are the rules:

2wd Buggy Super Stock
Open to ROAR legal Brushless or Modified Brushed motors

Open modification -- Can you explain this a little beter....

MUST RUN VINTAGE BODY
Radio gear "electronics" are open.
Tires/wheels are open
Li-Po batteries are allowed.

This is for the serious racer who wants to come and see just what these vintage machines could do in top form.

So in order to run in the 17.5 motor class, you can't have mods done to your buggy??

[scr8p]

i think going with a "true vintage" class would've been a better call, just my honest opinion. i'm no brushless wizard, but from what i understand, when using some of the latest.... greatest esc's, you could have a 17.5 that'll run like a 10.5. on that small track, how much faster do you really need to be?

i don't see enough 2wd cars being there to warrant splitting up the class. not to mention, most everyone's cars are already "loosely vintage".......... built with a lot of modern parts. so, you'd be better off just having a 2wd 17.5 and a 2wd open class. just as freddie pointed out, giving the class a different name makes ya think that your car is no longer legal to use in the same class you've run for the last 2 years.

but, it will eventually open up a can of worms when the truck and 4wd classes want to do the same thing. so then we'd be splitting those classes, too. 10 classes with 6-8 guys in each is never fun.

[Erich Reichert]

People told me they wanted to go faster so I thought we'd try this. If people don't sign up for it, we'll just try the other end of the spectrum next year. My thinking was getting the highly modded cars into something like that would open the door for people to go true vintage next year. As the only three people kind enough to give me feedback are in the True Vintage camp I have a couple questions for you:

1. How would you guys propose to handle the tire issues? Clearly tires size is the first issue... good lucking finding readily available 2.0" or 1.8" tires. The second is compounds and tread patterns... I've pretty much memorized every RCCA from 1986-2003 and it wasn't until the early 2000's that you heard the words blue groove or clay. I'm interested in what you guys would do... keep in mind the object is to make the race available to masses not a small handfull of guys how have a vintage tire collection they don't care about.

2. My second question is parts... not so much availability as much as a few other things. First do we cut off what kind of cars can run? Clearly a short arm rc10 and a JRX Pro SE are miles apart but if both are in True Vintage what do you propose things would become? Along the same lines, where does aftermarket come in? A lot of aftermarket stuff was worlds different back then from stock bits, that was the point... upgrading your car. Is it then not True Vintage? RPM still sells their arms for the RC10 so are they out since they're still available? Finally and this is what scares me the most about this... do we now have to tech the cars to make sure they're authentic? Do we DQ someone because they have titanium screws, a graphite front tower on the 10T (which is essentially the exact same thing just different material), or Worlds axles and wheels on their car bc they broke the orig axle or wanted CVD's or just didn't have the older style rims with the taper on them? The biggest downfall of racing is rules and regulation... especially in vintage racing. Do we really exclude someone from racing in what they want to because their car has the wrong axels or they couldn't get some obscurely rare part so they made due with something else?

3. Moving toward next year would you guys like to see something more along the lines of 80's and 90's car goign in their own class? This was my original idea in year one thinking that short arm 10s and Scorpions and things like that could run together and 90s could not only give JRX Pro SE's more competition with what they belong with but also allow for a few more years of leway... say you wanted to run a B2 or a more modern XX.

I really appreciate everyone's input... after all this is YOUR race and I do this for everyone to have a good time. I really don't make any money from the race (aside from my personal flea market I have going on during the race lol), I actually really only do this because i love doing it and I have possibly the best time all year with all of you guys. When I make changes to the race its so that the race is available to more people who want to come. At the base of the idea is making it easy for ANYONE of any skill level or car ownership to come race. Anyone with 100 bucks (seems a little more these days but you get my drift) can buy somehting off eBay and come be part of the race without having to be a serious racer.

[Erich Reichert]

but, it will eventually open up a can of worms when the truck and 4wd classes want to do the same thing. so then we'd be splitting those classes, too. 10 classes with 6-8 guys in each is never fun.

If truck and 4wd had the turn out that 2wd did i would consider it. 2wd is hands down the biggest class... last year we doubled the amount we had the year before which was why I felt maybe transplanting some of that growth into a new class would help grow the race more. You're right though and honestly maybe 4wd is the class more suited for going faster. Super Stock is an experiment for this year and if it doesn't work we'll try somehting else. My goal is to give you guys something new each year to keep you coming back.

Oh and Freddy, sorry I didn't answer your question before... no you can keep your car as is. Super Stock is more for pushing the envelope... people that want to try transplanting modern parts into older cars, special projects things like that. Sort of like for the Siebenlich (sorry I spelled it wrong.) style cars and things like that... trying to move the people that want to be creative and make new designs away from the guys that want to enjoy their cars for what they were (or in other words the guys that want to be ultra competitive vs the guys that want to have fun and drive old cars)

[Brandon G]

My 2 cents..

I like the idea of splitting up the manufacturing years into different classes. That way if you have a XX you want to run AND an older short arm RC10 you could do both. I would think that you would want to keep the cars in the older class more along the lines of OE and not upgraded. Short arm RC10's nees a 6 gear tranny for example. Still allow unlimited tires, to keep it fun and not a headache (like Erich stated) Maybe in the later year class go a few more years out to include the B2 & T2?

I agree with Scr8p, I don't think you'll really see huge lap time differences between a team car with a 17.5 or a 10.5. Especially if the track was designed for 17.5 speed.

Ultimately I think we see what Erich is trying to do. Offer new options and keep it interesting. Maybe when we do signups, hand out a suggestion sheet to get a better idea of what people want. Ultimately he is running the race though, so well see what happens. There may not be enough to run the open class, but then again, maybe there will be?

[scr8p]

Oh and Freddy, sorry I didn't answer your question before... no you can keep your car as is. Super Stock is more for pushing the envelope... people that want to try transplanting modern parts into older cars, special projects things like that. Sort of like for the Siebenlich (sorry I spelled it wrong.) style cars and things like that... trying to move the people that want to be creative and make new designs away from the guys that want to enjoy their cars for what they were (or in other words the guys that want to be ultra competitive vs the guys that want to have fun and drive old cars)

most guys, myself included, are already doing this in the regular 2wd class running 17.5 or 27t stockers. that's what i was trying to point out. there will be no difference between the cars except for the motor making it go, so why split them up? make it either 17.5/27t, or open it up to whatever motor you can handle. i personally don't want to see the second option put into effect, though. but hey, that's just me.

[Erich Reichert]

I hear ya Scr8p. I have guys that tell me they want to go faster too. I think it would be uglier if we had 17.5's and mods on the track at the same time. My experience is like what you said, lap times are really faster either way but maybe this will give the guys that want to just race somewhere to race and the guys like you and me that want to run vintage cars something too. Like I said, we'll try it and if it doesn't work we'll do something else. Anything is worth giving a try right?

[bearrickster]

Can I just run with the little kids

[Raul Garcia]

Man, I have a headache. Just keep it stupid simple.. 2wd 17.5/27t 1994 and earlier production. Of course your going to have those few people push the bar on mods to modern parts, but thats the nature of the beast. Classics class should be the kiddie class, and allowing under the age of 14 to participate. Heavy metal, enogh said there. 4wd is always the fastest class, it was then, and still is now 17.5/27t stock, again people pushing the bar there too.

People are loosing the concept of the "Vintage Nats". FUN. Dont dilute the classes, that would take away from the building of classes, and ultimately become more costly for entries. It would be ashame if someone ran two different 2wd classes, instead of a 2wd and lets say 4wd. Only my two cents.

Its almost time to start brushing off those vintage buggies...

[civilguy]

Classics class should be the kiddie class, and allowing under the age of 14 to participate.
....
People are loosing the concept of the "Vintage Nats".

When I raced in the mid-1980s there were Sand Scorchers, Hornets, Ultimas and Hotshots running on the same track as a handful of gold pans and Optimas. There was a truck class with Wild Willys, Big Brutes, Midnight Pumpkins, USA-1s, Lunchboxes. And everyone ran together... a 70-yr-old retiree who had been into rc since the 1940s and 10-yr-old kids. These are classics and I think lumping that whole era of rc racing as a 'kiddie' class is unfair to anyone who really wants to participate in a vintage race. Check out some of the threads on here from our Australian friends and their vintage meets... Maruis, SRBs, AYKs!!! They know how to party.
Having to find a 1993-1994 buggy and 'push the bar' isn't what I thought the VONats was all about. And relegating anyone who has a car that falls into the Classics description to the kiddie class isn't either.
My 2 broken record cents.

[bearrickster]

You know Erich this is your Sand Box I just want to come play in it. Run this Race how ever you see fit, this is the Third year so you must be doing something right. I dont see how all of these opinions are helping. theirs no way to make everyone happy, Just post the class and the rules let them stay, and we will come or not we dont want any winers anyway.

[civilguy]

FWIW I am not complaining at all. I've posted it before that Erich, Jon & Mark run a great event. I went to both so far. I would go again if the class structure was different. I'll be here on the forums and if that day comes there's a room at the Motel 6 in Southington with my name on it again!

I just think it's disrespectful that someone would throw a whole class of buggys that basically made the sport what it is today into the 'kiddie' race. Most racers I know didn't start with a $600+ RC10 setup ($225+ kit, $150 radio, $50+ bearings, $100+ battery and charger, $100+ esc)... they had a Fox or a Rough Rider or even **gasp** a Nikko... something less expensive first. Just like today a newbie will show up with a Rustler and maybe after a few races and some improvement he bites the bullet and gets a T4 or even an X60 kit.

The comment that classics is the kiddie class didn't sit right with me and that's why I responded with a little background info. I've raced at a lot of tracks and you play by their rules- no arguement there. In this case I am chosing to play in my own sandbox.

You can keep the cheese.

[Raul Garcia]

maybe i think you were misinterpeting me. The "classics" class UNMODIFIED aside from ball bearings, such as Tamiya Grasshoppers, Hornets, Wild One/FAV, Fox, Sand Scorcher, Holiday Buggy, FX-10, Fox, essentially all the beginners cars should be catagorized into this class. Which seems more appropriate to get the kids racing, JUST LIKE we started. I dont think it is fair to either the seasoned racer, or the kid that just bought a re-re to compete against each other, one for traffic, and two for ability. Chances are the kid that bought a re-re wants to just have fun and compete in probably their first race, and the other person/seasoned racer with their modified plastic car, is looking to win..