2010 -- VONATs -- Class Entry Discussion

[budhatrain]

I heard a great statement from a guy at the NR/CTPA nationals: he said, "you see, its not that you look at the rules to see what you can do, its more to find out what's not in the rules and get away with."

Which is the nature to competition- what can I do to win!

Once again what is the spirit of the Heavy Metal class- I would think it would be to see a bunch of cool looking Monster Trucks (vans) battling it out. Not so much a transitional stadium truckish MT only by name and branding.

Heavy Metal kinda has some assumptions built into it- Big Trucks!

[tecnica2001]

Last year, the guys at RCHR, had an RC10 Gold Tub buggy with a Heavy Metal conversion, so naturally I asked whether something like that would be allowed in the heavy metal class, and they said "absolutely". Some people agreed with it, some people didn't agree.

If RC10 (buggies with Big Tires and Jacked up Bodies) MT conversions, Blackfoots, King Cabs, Clodbusters etc, etc, are allowed to run in the same class, can you really blame the drivers that want to run the RC10 converted MTs?? Would that be considered trying to get away with something??

I would love to run something like this in Heavy Metal with Blackfoot wheels and tires... no stadium truck tires, use the big ole MT tires...
Thanks for the Pics Scott...

[budhatrain]

That does look heavy metal!!!!

I don't think I can blame anyone for being creative, innovative and procreative

I guess it comes down to those who like to play and those who play to win. It comes down to those who desire to be content no matter the outcome and those who can win and lose with class.

In many areas its ok to be and/both and not either/or: if that makes sense???!!!

[civilguy]

Freddie- the difference here is in the tires. Tires have been 'open' in all the VONats classes. If you say you want to run a giant aluminum-rimmed, tractor-tired RC10 in heavy metal, I would say that was awesome.

BUT you will get the next guy who says "OK, I can run a RC10 too but I'm going to use better tires because those tractor tires get me no traction". That is my concern.

You want to run a cool-looking rig and have fun... and that is very cool. By allowing modified buggies in Heavy Metal, it's just opening the door to someone running basically a stadium truck in that class.

Personally I don't care what is decided. This was probably my last VONats unless it gets large enough to split up classes into more appropriate groupings (by era). There's plenty of folks at the local track that are willing to race their modern toys against my old stuff.

[MelvinsArmy]

If RC10 (buggies with Big Tires and Jacked up Bodies) MT conversions, Blackfoots, King Cabs, Clodbusters etc, etc, are allowed to run in the same class, can you really blame the drivers that want to run the RC10 converted MTs?? Would that be considered trying to get away with something??

Yes to the first question and Yes to the second question. An RC10 is a race car. Period. A Blackfoot is a monster truck, so is a Clodbuster. A King Cab is borderline or maybe a hybrid. However, given equally matched drivers, electroncis and tires, it is not a match for an RC10T.

No problem with the pic Freddy. I built that truck as a "Heavy Metal" class vehicle, in the old school racing class sense of the term. When RC10s and Ultimas and the like were first being converted into trucks. Many of those early conversions didn't even use truck tires, but rather just had a truck body on a buggy with buggy tires. I was going for the point right between that very first era and the point when companies like JG and Proline and the like started offering truck conversion kits, complete with wheels.

The difference is much more than just the tires. It's an RC10!

I thought about bringing that truck to CT this year to race. But, I certainly was not interested in racing it in MT class because it wouldn't feel right. A converted RC10 vs a Lunchbox? Where is the fun in that? Also, it is too outdated to run in ST class. Again, that truck vs an LXT?

I don't think I can blame anyone for being creative, innovative and procreative

I guess it comes down to those who like to play and those who play to win. It comes down to those who desire to be content no matter the outcome and those who can win and lose with class.

And here is the problem, at least from my point of view. This is a vintage race. This is NOT the Worlds. By definition, this race should be about having a fun time. Why someone would want to run a car made after the cutoff date, or why someone would want to enter a converted purpose built race car to beat the snot out of some Lunchboxes, Blackfoots and Clodbusters is beyond me. I just don't get it. If you have to enter a vehicle that totally outclasses the rest of the field to win, then I think you've got the whole idea of why we do this messed up in a big way. Is winning really that important that it has to come at any cost? Again with Kramer in the kiddy karate class.

I go to CT to have fun. Having to reiterate what I think and what I think many others think this race is about over and over is really sucking the fun out of it. As soon as I'm not having fun, I'll find something else to do. This is a vintage race, you should race a vintage car that is reasonably matched with the other cars in your class. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

[tecnica2001]

Hey Jeff and Scott,

Both very good points, and I see where you guys are coming from..... Point well taken...

[budhatrain]

If RC10 (buggies with Big Tires and Jacked up Bodies) MT conversions, Blackfoots, King Cabs, Clodbusters etc, etc, are allowed to run in the same class, can you really blame the drivers that want to run the RC10 converted MTs?? Would that be considered trying to get away with something??

Yes to the first question and Yes to the second question. An RC10 is a race car. Period. A Blackfoot is a monster truck, so is a Clodbuster. A King Cab is borderline or maybe a hybrid. However, given equally matched drivers, electroncis and tires, it is not a match for an RC10T.

No problem with the pic Freddy. I built that truck as a "Heavy Metal" class vehicle, in the old school racing class sense of the term. When RC10s and Ultimas and the like were first being converted into trucks. Many of those early conversions didn't even use truck tires, but rather just had a truck body on a buggy with buggy tires. I was going for the point right between that very first era and the point when companies like JG and Proline and the like started offering truck conversion kits, complete with wheels.

The difference is much more than just the tires. It's an RC10!

I thought about bringing that truck to CT this year to race. But, I certainly was not interested in racing it in MT class because it wouldn't feel right. A converted RC10 vs a Lunchbox? Where is the fun in that? Also, it is too outdated to run in ST class. Again, that truck vs an LXT?

I don't think I can blame anyone for being creative, innovative and procreative

I guess it comes down to those who like to play and those who play to win. It comes down to those who desire to be content no matter the outcome and those who can win and lose with class.

And here is the problem, at least from my point of view. This is a vintage race. This is NOT the Worlds. By definition, this race should be about having a fun time. Why someone would want to run a car made after the cutoff date, or why someone would want to enter a converted purpose built race car to beat the snot out of some Lunchboxes, Blackfoots and Clodbusters is beyond me. I just don't get it. If you have to enter a vehicle that totally outclasses the rest of the field to win, then I think you've got the whole idea of why we do this messed up in a big way. Is winning really that important that it has to come at any cost? Again with Kramer in the kiddy karate class.

I go to CT to have fun. Having to reiterate what I think and what I think many others think this race is about over and over is really sucking the fun out of it. As soon as I'm not having fun, I'll find something else to do. This is a vintage race, you should race a vintage car that is reasonably matched with the other cars in your class. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Well said- I agree! I can't wait to race my clod- i'm going with a zilla 2 chassis though

[Erich Reichert]

Hey guys sorry I'm just getting to this thread I just found it. I read as much as I could and I know you have a ton of questions so now that I'm on it i should get notices when you ask something. Basically here are my thoughts and responses:

Mark and Jon run one of the best tracks I've ever been to, are two very close friends of mine whom i've raced with for a very long time and they've bent over backwards to have the Vonats there and I will ALWAYS have the race there as long as it works out for them and they want to hold it there but the race, as far as organizing it, rules, new ideas, etc is my end of the deal. Any questions or concerns I'm more than happy to give the best answers I can, please understand that decisions about classes and the like will come from me. I'm by no means trying to step on anyone, just mentioning this for the sake of organization as the race grows over the years.

So the big question I've seen is what can run in heavy metal. The answer is pretty simple actually. Think of it as Classic but for trucks. When we ran (Jon and I raced this together back in the early 90s) heavy metal back in the day, it was for trucks like the blackfoot, king cab, double dare things like that. There weren't rc10t's or JRXT's yet and when those sort of things came along they were serperated into whats now "Stadium Truck" class. I would like to keep things simple and just put it similarly to Classic by saying "non pro" trucks are allowed in Heavy Metal. I had my reservations about the King Cab (even though I ran one myself) but at the end considered not only that it ran in Heavy Metal way back when, but that it also is by no means on the level of stadium trucks. The Sledgehammer (saw that mentioned somewhere and that was one of my favs back in the day) would certainly be a heavy metal truck as well as others like it.

As far as Tech goes... I think thats starting to get away from the point of this race. The Vonats was created as a FUN get together for enthusiasts like you all to get together, meet and hang out and watch some old fashioned r/c cars go around the track again. While its great to want to be the fastest and win, the emphasis is on having a good time with old cars no one runs anymore that's why I leave a lot on the honor system. There were a couple people that initially showed up with mod motors but when either someone else brought it to my attn or I noticed it myself, I asked them if they wouldn't mind running a stock motor and even offered one if they didn't have any. Like I said... its all in the interests of having the best time possible and from my 20 years of racing experience the more rules you put on a race and the higher the stakes of one, the less fun it is for everyone to attend.

1994 was the year I picked because it was, in my opinion, the design and thereby performance of r/c cars changed drastically. The 2nd gen XX, B2/T2, etc were WAY different than anything before them and I felt this was important in keeping thing fun for everyone. The year won't change just because the current year does. What I may do down the road is add a new class when I think its worth it for everyone but until then 94 is the general cut off. I say general because if some unknowing person shows up with a old car (like a T2) and didn't know and its the only reason he came... I'd rather that person have fun and meet all of you and learn than become discouraged and not want to join us.

I have some ideas for next year. A few people came to me and asked about maybe a kids class growing out of the Classic class, I just saw some interest in a truck pulling class, and have gotten some feedback from others about other issues... basically what I'm getting at is keep talking to me. I do this for you (believe it or not I almost break even on the race) so that we can all meet each other, share some old memories and have some new ones together. I just want everyone to have fun and thats ALL I ever want this race to be from my point of view so PLEASE keep the feedback coming in... i listen to all of you

Thanks guys
Erich

[tecnica2001]

Awesome,

Thanks for the post Erich...

PS
When are you downloading your pictures?? I know you have stacks of them somewhere in your comp...

[Erich Reichert]

lol dude i have SO MANY and haven't had time to do much of anything. I was sick for the last week and a half and just got out of bed for the first time this weekend. I'll try and put up some more pics this week.

[MelvinsArmy]

Erich, can we do something about the motor rules for MT class? I want to run a Clodbuster, but there aren't any zero or adjustable timing 27T motors available. Anthony suggested that I take some 27T armatures and put them in modified cans, but that sounds like something expensive for me to mess up. Any chance we could run mild modifies like 19T or something, or Sport Tuned motors or something else? I know I'm not the only one who wants to race a Clod next year.

[Erich Reichert]

Curious why you want adjustable timing stock motors? For the reverse rotation?

[MelvinsArmy]

Curious why you want adjustable timing stock motors? For the reverse rotation?

Exactly. The Clod needs one reverse rotation motor. 27T motors all have fixed 24 degree timing. Kinda messes things up if you run a fixed 24 degree motor in reverse against a forward 24 degree motor.

Or if we just had everyone run Sport Tuned, that would be zero degree and a nice spec motor.

[Erich Reichert]

hmmm this is an interesting problem. I don't have a problem saying lets go 19t but the issue presents itself as to then eveyone else in Heavy Metal has to run 19t too. What about if we went to box stock motors? I was talking to Tamiya about supplying them as handouts for Classic to overcome the overgearing issue for some cars... maybe its a fix for Clods and heavy metal too

[MelvinsArmy]

You mean silver cans? I wouldn't have any problem with that. Sport Tuned would be better, cause they're the same dimensions as a silver can, with more power.

I was also thinking of brining my Buggy Champ next year too, and I'd probably put a Sport Tuned in it because that and the silver can are really the only two motors that will fit in that car.