Handling questions - CE indoor high bite clay

[JK Racing]

carriers are deep drilled/machined, no binding issues at all

I have the B44 set up on my other buggy, but I like the width these offer.

[Charlie don't surf]

Yeah, that is a lot of droop for a high bite track IMO- I would give my setup a try, or check Ruffy/Harris setup foe a baseline. I also would ask to see how the bump effects the steering on a right and left- bump with the wheels straight and with them turned are 2 different things Also, are you sure that those are 25deg blocks? look like 10-15

[JK Racing]

99% sure, I can line it up next to a NIP 30 carrier to show...

edit...found a side shot of these carriers when they were on my black chassis...

[Charlie don't surf]

Just a thought- BTW, having a Guiness for you for your B-day

[JK Racing]

or hit the bottle of Repesado Tequilla my employees gave me

I probably spelled that wrong.... LMAO, that is what old guys do...

[Charlie don't surf]

Placing a protractor on that shot gives me -10deg, which makes them 20 deg blocks-

but I would still like to see the steering work at droop, and compressed

[JK Racing]

crappy hack photos...after uploading them, realized I probably should have been directly overhead, not at an angle...

arms level, tires straight


arms compressed tires straight


level turn


compressed turn


level other turn


compressed other turn


add 2 shims in the rear - 3 total


2 shims in the front

[flipwils11]

Keep it coming guys, this will be very helpful for my old is new CE build which is getting closer to being announced here.

[Charlie don't surf]

You have quite a bit of "bump in" for that car- you have a good droop amount of ackerman, but under compression the inside tire is coming in, decreasing the rate of steering and probably causing some "loose/tight/loose" steering- try shimming the outer ball cups up at the steering arms- and then check it again- you may have the belcranks too low as well-

but the droop is still a large part of the issue as well-

[JK Racing]

The droop doesnt look better in the "new" photos?

The front arms are level (at full droop), rear arms are slightly below level.

[Charlie don't surf]

The rear looks good, the front looks a little high- I forgot to add that I was using the new AE thin spacer If that is what you used- then maybe remove 1 in the front

[JHarris]

I'll try to include as much as I can about my current setup. I can add pics later, but the biggest difference and issue I think you are dealing with is the stuff to adapt the B4 wheels. You will recall I ran my car that way for about a year. When I switched it to stock parts with TT wheels and Duratrax fronts, it made a huge difference. So, here's what I run:

Rear shocks: 1.32/1.02 Factory Team threaded V1
#1 pistons with 30wt AE oil
Green springs
Far inside hole on the Atlas tower and outside hole on the AE6355 rear arm
Rear camber link is mounted under the wing tube
1.5 degree AE rear carriers
1.5 degree arm mounts

Front shocks: .89 B4 Factory Team V1 threaded
#1 pistons with 30wt AE oil
Black springs
standard inner camber link mounting on the Atlas tower
25 degree caster blocks
(2) standard ball stud washers underneath the stud on the steering knuckle

Ride height is arms level in the front with bones level in the rear


A couple things I would try or change based on your pictures:
move the rear link inward
washers under ball stud on steering knuckle
minimal droop
Silver springs all around
Lay the top of the rear shocks over


Don't use the 1.18 shock bodies to limit your droop. Those bodies are too short and cause you to need external limiters.

I'll try to think of a few more things to try, but my car was very twitchy with the B4 front/rear wheel adaptation and a very high bite track.

Here's a video of my car with my current setup. It was even better earlier in the day before my eyes were on fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPQParuwN-8

[JK Racing]

When I switched it to stock parts with TT wheels and Duratrax fronts, it made a huge difference.

Since my next race is this Saturday, I dont have the ability to do this by then, I was hoping this wasnt going to be the answer. But I have been contemplating "converting" back (or would that be reverting back?) for some time now, looks like I will pull the trigger. All the nice pretty new Rulux wheels I bought will be given back to my son for his B4 (or used on my TRX3 ). I just really hate buying double the tires due to different offsets.

A couple things I would try or change based on your pictures:
1 - move the rear link inward
2 - washers under ball stud on steering knuckle
3 - minimal droop
4 - Silver springs all around
5 - Lay the top of the rear shocks over

1 - on the B4 hub or bulkhead or both?
2 - will do
3 - think I am there now
4 - looks like I need to buy more springs
5 - will do

[JK Racing]

The rear looks good, the front looks a little high- I forgot to add that I was using the new AE thin spacer If that is what you used- then maybe remove 1 in the front

I will re-do the front shocks to 1 (fat white) spacer. I thought it looked a bit too much. As of right now, this one is still planning on hitting the track Saturday. 22 may need to wait for the next series race, get a couple club races under its belt.

[fredswain]

I'm a long winded, technically minded person so bear with me a bit.

I've got a different way to setup a car than most people do. I start tuning by setting everything right in the middle in terms of tie rod end locations with a fairly level stance. I begin by focusing only on the springs and nothing else. I run the car around with no shock oil initially so that the only thing controlling up and down movements are the springs. You can imagine that it bounces around quite a bit. Start with the softest springs you can run and still maintain a level ride height at rest. Run it around. Try not to hit any jumps. You are really just trying to find the car's natural resonant frequency and this can even be done in the street or a parking lot. The front and back each have a suspension frequency. The goal is to try to match them fairly closely based on the vehicle weight distribution.

You'll notice that when just driving in a straight line that the car will pulse up and down. It will pulse slower with softer springs and faster with stiffer springs. If the front is bouncing up and down faster than the rear, the front needs softer springs than the rear or the rear needs stiffer. You get the idea. When the car pulses in this off way it is known as porpoising. Yes like the animal swims. The whole point of this is to figure out the spring rate percent differences needed between front and rear. This will be different for different cars and very different between mid motor cars and rear motor cars. Once you get to the point where you have the front and rear bouncing pretty much in harmony, now you can worry about overall spring rate. If you go a spring stiffer in back, go one stiffer in front too but try to maintain that same rate ratio between front and back. At the very least don't vary it by more than one spring rate. If you need more then you've got other problems to worry about.

A stiffer car overall will have a higher resonant frequency. Softer has a lower resonant frequency. Faster tracks want a higher frequency, slower tracks a lower frequency. Keep in mind you want to do all of this testing with the same types and compounds of tires that you intend to actually race with as varying compounds change things since the tires are ultimately a part of your suspension too. If you run extra softs one day but medium compounds another time, don't think the compound alone is what changed your traction. It changed your whole suspension setup a little bit. Even your chassis flex plays a part so settings will be different between a graphite chassis vs an aluminum pan.

Once you get your spring ratio chosen, now install shock oil. Start low. I start at 20W but valving internally will cause this to vary. A larger bore shock should be started with a lower weight. Drive around the track. Until it is setup well, don't hit those jumps too hard. What you are doing is seeing how the car behaves in the bumps. When you get to a point where the car starts to bump instead of absorbing the, well bumps, go back down an oil weight. Keep in mind the front or rear may do this before the other end does. That's normal. When this happens you stop on that end and continue going up on the other until the same thing happens. This is finding the perfect combination that keeps the front and rear fairly even in rate to each other. The closer your car's weight distribution is to 50/50, the closer these settings will get. A typical rear motor car has an f/r weight distribution of about 30/70 or even more so it's going to be quite different. This is one reason why many people go to mid motor setups and hate them. There are other factors but this is just one. Our goal is to have our suspension behave as those it is equally weighted front and rear. Spring rate and shock and rebound should be setup on each end so that each end behaves like the other one does. Obviously things change a bit when movement is factored in but hopefully you know what I mean.

Now during all of this, if your springs collars need to become so far down that you can't tighten them anymore, go up a spring rate or 2 front and rear. You get the idea. You really shouldn't be running a spring that requires you to tighten it very far. Once you have these set, now take it around the track like you are intending to race it. See how it handles. Correct any steering issues with things such as adjusting your roll centers, anti squat, ackerman, camber, and caster blocks. You can do small adjustments to the shocks of course if you still need to but don't veer too far off of your balanced settings as you may be creating a bandaid to fix one issue while messing up another. It is all a balancing act though. Keep in mind that in regards to roll centers, a car that has a higher roll center in back than front will tend to oversteer while a higher roll center in front will tend to understeer. You don't want these too be too different from each other though.

This is how I setup cars. I am leaving many very technical aspects out but hopefully this will give you some things to play with and try when you get the time. It can be time consuming but the results can be very nice resulting in a car that is easy to drive. It applies to any surface and type of car regardless of weight distribution or number of drive wheels.